0-10v or powerline control?

Is the Square-D / Clipsal / C-Bus control system being used?

If so, then you are better off using 0-10V controlled ballasts with an analogue 0-10V output unit.

If it's all stand-alone then it's up to you (but I also assume you would not be posting here if it was all stand-alone).

Powerline carrier is better than it used to be but unless you hear lots of evidence from people who have actually used them, steer clear. Much is not quite as good as it's made out to be. And you don't want to find that out the hard way!

 

Looking at the Advance website... those ballasts certainly look like they're designed to work with phase control dimmers like the Square-D Clipsal ones, and one would assume that if the design center is recommending them, that they have tested them with those dimmers... can you ask for a demo?

To my knowledge there is nothing like that on the Australian market for linear fluorescent lamps..... the closest thing would be dimmable compact fluorescents, which do not have a good track record for compatibility with phase control dimming.

DALI ballasts are a bit of a pain to commission... and you will almost certainly need need other tools and software to do so.

I'm not across the pricing of the Square-D Clipsal stuff... but over here a 4 channel 0-10V output unit is less than a DALI gateway (once you take into account the cost of the DALI power supply)... so I'm surprised at the $350 vs $200/channel cost comparison...

Nick

 

I think the comparison was $350 for DALI (all channels) vs $200 for a 0-10 output unit where you need a few of them (basically one per channel).

Actually, the 5504AMP (add the prefix / suffix to suit local catalog numbers) does have 4 channels of output on it. So its $50 per channel.

Sounds to me like the local folks are not quite so knowledgeable about fluorescent dimming.

In summary, you have 4 possible types:

- something that works with phase control. Just be careful here. Standard phase control dimmers need a minimum load, and the magical phase control -> fluoro converter box may or may not meet that. You need a demo. If you can see it work with a square-D / Clipsal / C-Bus dimmer, then fine. If nobody can show it to you actually working then steer clear.

- DSI. This is a Tridonic standard, its basically a broadcast (like a very dumbed down DALI). You can hang a lot of ballasts on a DSI line and they all just follow the dimming level it sends out.

- DALI. Newer, allows more sophisticated control. You can map cbus groups to DALI broadcast, or DALI groups. You will need separate DALI commissioning software. You also must make sure you buy the right DALI ballasts. (Don't buy cheap, and don't buy "3%" ballasts.)

- 0-10 V analogue. Probably the oldest and simplest. Much like DSI, you can hang multiple ballasts off a single 0-10V line, and all will follow the voltage to determine a brightness.

The appropriateness of these for commercial buildings is pretty readily apparent, and they all have their place. For residential, it's a much harder call and depends on what you want to do, and how many loads you have that need to follow each other or be separate from each other.

You'll notice that Compact Fluorescent lamps are not mentioned above. These are a more complex PITA, subject for a separate discussion should that be relevant to you.

 

There are 2 types of dimmable CFL: a 2-terminal type that replaces a standard bulb. In the USA this would have the standard Edison Screw base. The other type is a more-than-2 terminal type (most likely 3 or more terminals - I know they exist but I've never seen one - they are a specialised purchase).

The multi-terminal types are dimmable properly using, usually 0-10V or possibly DALI (a bit shaky on the details here).

The retrofit/2-terminal devices are very new on the market and still maturing. The makers will tell you otherwise, but to put in a "dimmable" CFL that replaces an incandescent bulb, and to have it work off a pre-existing phase control dimmer is possible but hit-and-miss. Some work well, some don't. And the makers change their models frequently. You can use them but if you find one that does not work properly you will have to take it back to the store and change to a different brand or model.

Moral: use a CFL especially designed for dimming with dimming control terminals and you'll get a better result but pay more $. Using a retail $5 CFL sold in the supermarket and claiming "dimmable" and they may work, they may not, its more hit-and-miss. And the technology in these is changing and maturing rapidly. In 6-12 months the situation will be different. Right now, its challenging. The change of the law in Australia to ban incandescent light sales means that the makers will respond, and quickly. They have already begun.

My personal view is that CFL's are an interim step on the way to mainstream LED lighting. Spending lots of money on CFLs that will, in all likelihood become an obsolete technology in a few years... something to be careful of. I'm sure there are others who disagree.

With CFL's and dimming the suckers - go in with your eyes open

As above, I'm sure the makers will respond and we'll have good ones very soon.

 

Actually DSI is digital. The main difference between DSI and DALI is that DALI ballasts are *addressable* (this is what the "A" in "DALI" stands for).

With DALI, you can have up to 64 ballasts on the same pair of control wires, and send different levels to each of them. With DSI, you can have many more ballasts than this, but all ballasts on the same pair of control wires receive the same level. It's the assigning of these addresses to the DALI ballasts that seems to make DALI installation painful and time consuming.

Another difference is that DALI is bidirectional, which amongst other things allows the ballasts to report on their status.

If your installation only needs 8 or less areas of control (the C-Bus DSI Gateway has 8 channels), and you have the option of DSI ballasts, and you don't care about status reporting.. a DSI installation is likely to be quicker and simpler than a similar DALI install.

DMX may be an open protocol... but it's hardly been free from compatibility problems. A downside of the openness of DMX is that it has allowed a lot of backyard manufacturers to make a lot of crap products. Recently I was doing some EMC immunity testing on a new product with a DMX input.... the product under test passed the test easily, but the third party product we were using to generate the DMX signal locked up with every burst.

Nick

 

The original post was also from a customer in the USA, where DALI is less prevalent. There is a heck of a log of 0-10V used for dimming there, still.

So its worth running through all the options, and all the issues. What's good for Australia is not always what's good for Asia is not always what's good for Europe is not always what's good for USA. In spite of globalisation!