4-zone thermostats -- more clues for the clueless?

Discussion in 'C-Bus Wired Hardware' started by curiouser, Apr 27, 2008.

  1. curiouser

    curiouser

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    i'm planning to use the 4-zone thermostat to control hydronic heating. single stage, no cooling or ventilation, so it's about as simple as it could be. given that the thermostat comes with 5 relays on-board, it seems like i ought to be able to use one to turn on the pump and one for each of the zone valves. is there any reason that won't work? the installation manual says "Control of multiple zones is accomplished using external C-Bus relays which control dampers or valves ...", but they seem to be assuming that i'll need all the built-in relays to control fans, compressors, etc. am i right in assuming that i don't need external relays to make this work, or am i going to be disappointed?

    and while i've got your attention, is the "unswitched zone" explained anywhere? what's the consequence of enabling/disabling the unswitched zone as a user controlled zone?

    those thermostats are pretty complex devices, and trying to piece together an understanding of them from the installation manual and the toolkit help pages is pretty painful. some kind of theory-of-operation document would be really helpful.
     
    curiouser, Apr 27, 2008
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  2. curiouser

    ashleigh Moderator

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    The thermostat has been designed to handle hydronic heating. I'm NOT SURE about operating the pump though. I think it should be ok.

    The on-board relays are LOW VOLTAGE, LOW CURRENT relays designed for switching 24V ac signals, these normally operate some other switching system (contactors, or whatever). So don't use the on-board relays to control mains operated devices like pumps or valves. You might let the smoke out, and we know what happens when you do that to electronics.

    So if you want to operate those as mains powered devices you need a thermostat w/o relays, and then use an external cbus relay unit.

    IN TOOLKIT, if you add the thermostat to your project, and then open the GUI you will see you can select a Predefined Installation. If you pick BASIC HYDRONIC, you will get a simple unzoned setup.

    Next, look at the PLANT tab. This shows you the setup of the equipment that does the heating or cooling (in this case the hydronic SYSTEM). You will see a button there: Heating Groups. If you click that, it opens and shows you that there is only a stage 1 heating group. This is used to turn the heating plant on and off.

    In your case, this should most likely be used to control the pump.

    If you want to take a basic configuration and then change it, you can. You can add zones to be controlled (up to 4). The unswitched zone is simply a zone that you cannot turn on and off using the controls on the thermostat - its always on if the system is on.

    Example: to add a zone, after loading the basic hydronic configuration, click the "zone 1" checkbox next to the picture of the product. You then DO NOT do anything in the plant tab (the zone is not the heating plant). If you have the Plant Tab open you will see that Zone 1 becomes ticked in there also... just leave it that way.

    Next go to the PLANT Tab. You will see that the DAMPER GROUPS button is now active. Click that. In there you will see that for each of the Zone Dampers you can pick a cbus group. So in here, go set the groups what will control the dampers (in this case, valves for each zone, that will be driven open or closed.)

    Depends on your equipment. If your dampers or valves are switched using 24V ac you can use a model with on-board relays. The on-board relays just get a group address like any other cbus relay.

    But if your equipment is 240V ac for operation, you need to use external relays (as I wrote above).

    You always need an unswitched zone in your installation. If you have a multi-thermostat installation (you can have several thermostats on a single network in a master/slave type arrangement) then so long as 1 of them controls the unswitched zone, you are ok.

    If in doubt, leave it there.

    Yep.

    You want to see the 1-page wiring guides, that are all you get, from some of the competition.

    Will see if we can publish something. Its the help, arranged in the format of a manual.

    A lot of it needs reading 3 times :)

    If you are struggling, start with the pre-defined installations, figure out how they work, and then modify / build up from there.

    The devices are very powerful, they allow a single cbus cable to have separate systems on the same cable (those systems have no knowledge or interaction with each other). You can also have several devices working with each other in a master / slave mode. You can have remote or on-board temperature sensing (when the remote temperature sensor is released). You can use setback and guard.

    You can also use DAMPER MODULATION to regulate the temperature in a zone (note that you need a temperature sensor in that zone for this to be really effective). This will open and close the damper to control the flow of air (or heated water for hydronic).

    For fan coil units (normally chilled water + valve + heat exchanger + fan) you can also to proportional control of the amount that the valve will be opened !
     
    ashleigh, May 4, 2008
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  3. curiouser

    rickm

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    Basic Hydronic setting dis-allows timer programing??

    Hi folks
    have 2 new CBUS 5 relay therms. when you install using "Basic Hydronic" pre-set - bith units LOSE all program timer funtionality and will only work as "manual" units. Sure there will be a switch to turn on timer function but cant for the life of me find it in any of the toollkit TABS?
    Please help??:confused:

    Rick
     
    rickm, Apr 10, 2009
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  4. curiouser

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Timer function?

    What do you mean?

    Do you mean the schedule? Where you can set on/off times (of the day)?

    If so... you can only set those up on the actual thermostat, not in toolkit.
     
    ashleigh, Apr 11, 2009
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  5. curiouser

    rickm

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    YES - I mean the schedule? Where you can set on/off times (of the day)?

    When using the [Basic Hydronic] pre-set in tool kit, (which is the mode I need) the units themselves lose the ability to program timer programability.
    the "program" option is greyed out on both units. and then they only act as dumb temperture switches.

    have re-set at both units and from TC to no avail.

    any thoughts appreciated
     
    rickm, Apr 15, 2009
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  6. curiouser

    Newman

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    To Enable Scheduling you have to go to the Scheduling tab in the Toolkit UI and assign Enable Control Application Network Variables to the Remote Schedules Groups. Once you've saved this to the unit you then need to go to the physical unit to program in the schedules.

    In your case, you'd also tick the "Non-Evaporative Plant Equipment" tickbox.

    This is necessary to activate the "Program" menu item when you press the Setup button.
     
    Newman, Apr 15, 2009
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  7. curiouser

    rickm

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    thx - I did try that however when I do that it asks for me to designate GROUPS from the 3 dropdown lists - which I dont require nor understand.
    thoughts?
     
    rickm, Apr 17, 2009
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