Average Home, Design & Programming Time?

I know this is a broad question, but I am interested in finding out how much time is required for programming Clipsal systems compared to other systems? I am in the USA but Clipsal is coming to us soon I hear. I know it will be a different system from an electrical spec. stand point, but I would guess that the design and programming will be similar. Most of the systems in the US have gone or are moving to drag and drop type software and programming times are being cut way back. Any thoughts about these questions would be of great help. We will soon have more info here in the US, but you guys have the hands on knowledge. Thanks.

 

Hi Eden,

Welcome to the forum..

Whats an average home in the USA? Perhaps you could define number of rooms, type of rooms, number of loads, types of loads, external lights? movement sensors? HVAC control? IR integration? Blind/curtain control? Alarm integration? Perhaps wrap the example in something specific so the experienced Integrators on the forums can provide a meaningful answer..

 

Ten touchpads (can be 1-8 button units), 2 IR Remotes, Input module for third party contacts (PIR, Door Contacts, & Etc.) Up to 40 legs of 240 watts each for a total of up to 9600 watts of load, and low voltage wall cabinet. Lighting control programming only: scenes, timed events, and etc. for the above system. No special input (PIR, Door Contacts, & Etc.) programing. This would be a small job: exterior lights, entrance foyer, main living area, and maybe master bedroom. This is just an example to get some grasp on project time required with Clipsal: Estimate for Homeowner, Wiring layout paper work for electrican, and programming and followup? The user interfaces (Keypads) with Clipsal look great, but how difficult is to plan and program? Thanks for any comments.

 

I am definitely no "expert programmer" of C-Bus, but I just looked up the figures from a recent project...

Note that I might do things slightly "wierdly" in that I pre-program all the switches with all the initial settings (ie: fully programmed), but I only program the relays and dimmers with Unit Address and Name, but not controlled loads. That is done off-site, then I give them to the electrician to install on-site... they give me back a list saying something like :
"bedroom 1, wallwashing downlights = Dimmer 5, channel 8"
And then I go to site, and program and test each load into the output devices.

Other people do it ALL off-site, others do everything on-site - both might be more efficient but I find it better doing it my own way, as I could do the initial (=boring) stuff at my leisure.

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This info for a moderate sized house with 50 loads over 3 floors. 25 switches, no PIRs, blinds, or fancy stuff in the initial install - basically we were getting the house lights "up and running".

Also note that we only supplied and programmed - we do NOT install nor document the Electrical side of things... we only handle the Cbus side.

Consulting, planning and purchasing : 6 hrs
Prepare documentation & attack plan : 4 hrs
Switch and Output Unit pre-programming : 10 hrs
Program Outputs (on-site) & test : 4 hrs
** note electrician had a short in Cbus wiring, could not test !
Final programming and tweaks (on-site) : 2 hrs
A few client requested changes : 2 hrs
Final documentation and burn handover CD etc : 3 hrs

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For that house, the Interior Designer had already worked out the switching (based on conventional wiring) so we only confirmed with client that we should do it as-per the plans. Normally we find that most clients do not have a CLUE what they want, and they seem to think that the Control System will make things magically happen even if there is no previous thought, wiring or provision made for them in the build !

Also note that most people can do it a LOT faster than I do it... most of my time is in documentation and planning, as I always ensure that I give the client everything they need to either program themselves or hand the project on to another integrator (who will in-turn have everything they need in a binder so they can immediately work on the site) in the future.

I also consider I spend a lot of time making everything work "straight up"... in other words I spend considerable time ensuring that the client understands what they are getting, and make everything work logically... a good example is that I ensure that when looking at a switch, that the top right button controls the light furthest away, on the right side... whilst most houses (programmed by others) I am asked to fix have the switches laid out in haphazard ways that nobody (including the owner) can remember !

Anyway, that's my 2c worth - for what it's worth

JC

 

onya John

Thanks for that.

I've alway's wondered myself how it really works. I have always installed first and then scanned the resulting mess to discover what it actually connected, then work from there.. but then I'm not a professional installer, and as you might expect, have generally had a lot of different (and un-supported) C-Bus equipment on my home installations, so the database support was not always possible.

I also try and make the key layout on multi-key units consistent, but find that it is easier to remember on the basis of function rather than position. Top left always the main light in bedrooms, bottom two buttons for controlling ceiling sweep fan speed, and other buttons according to lamp position works for me.

Don

 

Thanks for the numbers that really helps alot, from what I have heard the US product is in UL approval and the hopes are that the wired system will be a go in July. Those programming times don't sound to bad compared to other systems. What is required in the system to do timed events: Exterior lights on at 10 mintues before dusk at 70% and then to 30at say midnight, and off at sunrise? Will the system do path way scences? Master bedroom to kitchen: Bedroom lights on, 1/2 second later hall lights, and then 1/2 second later the kitchen lights or in Living room: recessed lights, then art lighting, and then accent lighting on furniture?

 

The CBus system (or as it is called in the US 'Clipsal') will do all those things you outlined with the greatest of ease.

You will probably need a PAC or a Colour (Color) Touch Screen to get the scenes and timing right.

You will be pleasantly surprised at how flexible / powerful and easy to program the system is compared to other technologies - it's an Australian thing

 

Go Aussie Go!!!

Lol, I love your Australian pride there PSC

I'm definately not a racist, and definately not anti-Yank (My best mate growing up was born there, moved here when he was 8), but I would SOOOO love to see a showdown between the US and Aus, just to prove we do things better Cant wait to see how C-Bus goes in the US!!

 

Just to clarify what Peter said above...

C-Bus is the basic "control and switching system" and the switches themselves don't have time clocks in them (they do have Timers, but that's not what you asked about). In order to do Time-Based control you need something with a Real Time clock. The easiest way to add this is with a C-Bus Black & White Touchscreen... it ain't the prettiest device, but it's bland grey looks hide a multitude of features.

To switch on lights BEFORE dusk, you can't always use light level sensors. But the Touchscreens & PAC have an inbuilt thingy that calculates every day the Sunrise and Sunset for your particular Latidude and Longitude (including Daylight Savings). Then, you program an event using an offset from Sunrise and Sunset (eg: Exterior lights on at 10 mintues before sunset, then off again at Midnight).

You can even set it to do different things on individual days, groups of days (eg: Weekdays vs Weekends), or even different weeks, different months, etc etc. It is harder to explain what it does, than it is to program that part !

Alternatively, you could use a Light Level Sensor and then set it to switch on the lights when the ambient light dropped down to a certain "hmmm, it's getting a bit dark now" level... But then you have to decide how to turn them off again (timer?). However, it's usually easier to use a smarter device like a Touchscreen or PAC (basically a controller but no interface screen).

For this, you really need a Colour Touchscreen or PAC. You can't *easily* program this with a B&W Touchscreen (although it is possible, it relies on using "scenes to trigger scenes" in some preset order, which is amazingly complex to get to work properly). The Color T/S and PAC have the necessary smarts to allow this sort of thing to be easily implimented.

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The other good alternative to the above is to use a dedicated PC and then to run Schedule Plus or Homegate software on it. This allows you to hide it in a study etc, or to put a huge great big PC-based touchscreen on your wall to impress friends. The advantage of using a PC is that you get a BIG screen (whatever size you like, I've heard of someone getting a touch overlay for a 52" plasma and running thru that!). Also you can store almost unlimited graphics on the PC, plus it works out cheaper than the C-Bus Color touchscreen.

The disadvantage is that you have to find somewhere to house that PC (the small fanless ones can be handy for this) and ensure that it doesn't get too hot. You also should consider a UPS if you have everything controlled by the PC. But since you have to use a PC to commission and service the C-Bus anyway (even though a PC isn't required after commissioning), there are definite advantages in using a dedicated machine and leaving it running on the system...

If you don't want a touchscreen, just use a cheapo Dell 733MHz or similar with about 256MB of RAM... a couple of hundred bucks for the PC and another couple of hundred for Homegate or Schedule Plus and you have almost unlimited control at an absolute bargain price ! Is a mouse really THAT more archaic than using a touchscreen? Perhaps it doesn't have the same wow-factor, but you can always add the touchscreen later if you like

Cheers, John

 

Well said Brother John

I recently took a touch typing course so I could try to post more detailed solutions like yourself. It just goes to show that I will do anything to get back in the circle.

 

If you look at the history of the product and where it is today, it goes without saying that CBUS system is by far better.

The fact that …..
1. more products are developed and introduced,
2. more features are added regularly,
3.having (even though informal) this forum which in way shapes the development of the products and
4. the CBUS Enabled Program
…. Makes the system more attractive.

The only gripe/negative that I have is ….

Clipsal has representatives in more than 16 countries. Excluding Australia, and maybe a few other countries, this representatives offer little or no CBUS support. This leads to a lot of client frustrations and in most cases clients going for a lesser featured system which would offer more support. I would be interested in seeing if he US Clipsal gets this right.