Back after 9 years with issues..

I just checked on my last post was in 2015 when we bought the property!

since then we’ve not had any issues that couldn’t be easily resolved with new lightbulbs.

however we are finally now seeing issues with the system, seems to be very common from what I have read on this excellent forum.

1: switches are flashing randomly when pressed every few days but not a consistent pattern. Then the system can be fine for a few days.

2: random lights are turning themselves on, however, they are not all from the same dimmer brick.

I have reached out to a couple of UK based C Bus / Clipsal highly recommended technicians which I found on the forum.

One of them has been very helpful and is obviously extremely knowledgeable, however, I am waiting for confirmation if they can assist with fixing our issue.

I do have some questions which I’m sure you guys would know given how knowledgeable you all seem!


we have the following CBUS2 blue fronted units.
5 x 8 way powered dimmers.
1 x universal 4 way dimmer (not powered)
1 x 12 way relay powered
2 x 4 way dimmers (not powered)

we are not using all the channels on the dimmers and on one of the 8 way powered dimmers are in fact only using 1 channel (1button)

so by the looks of it, we probably could get away with actually less dimmers. However here are my questions.

1: is there actually any way of getting any replacement units in the UK still? or having them sourced in?

2: rather than replace them for old stock or the same like for like can they be replaced if we wanted to for the new space logic digital ones? as these are readily available

3. Will the space logic ones work with our existing keypads? we have 3 x DLT keypads and the rest of the Saturn 4 button switches. (14 off)

4: I am probably being very ignorant as I have very little knowledge about Clipsal. I am just being hopeful that we could potentially change the old units for the digital ones?

The reason we may be interested in doing this is because of the lengthy amount of time it seems to take to troubleshoot the flashing light switches and random lights turning themselves on and off?

Or again, am I being ignorant and potentially wasting a load of money (if even possible) And Can the flashing light switches and random lights turning on be diagnosed And resolved permanently?

From reading the forum, it seems to Be a case of hoping to find a faulty dimmer unit By trial and elimination.. Does this involve replacing one dimmer unit for a brand-new one and hoping that works and if not replacing another one and so on?

most post seem to point towards a failing power supply on one of the bricks,, However, because we have ample spare Channels across all of them am I not right in thinking that the other units would pick up the lack of power if one of them was failing?

Or is that not the case and because one of them is failing this is what can cause the light switches to be temperamental and some random lights turn on at other times ills at it fails and it takes a moment for the other units to pick up the lack of power from the failing one?

Obviously when we are experiencing issues, I am not stood in front of the system so cannot see if it turns on or off or there is a power flicker or failure to a specific unit.. I was considering putting one of our CCTV internal cameras pointing at the Cabinet.
This way when we experience any lights randomly turning on, I could go back through the CCTV and look at the cabinet to see if any of the units had flickered or turned on and off? This may at least give some indication and timestamp of when the lights turned themselves on if one of the units had an issue at the same time?
I do have a Windows PC, but I’m nervous to install any software as I probably wouldn’t understand what I was reading




If this is the case, this would mean potentially trying to find the actual stock to start with? Or would it be better to bite the bullet and just replace the old discontinued units for the digital ones again if even an option?

Any help advice would be really appreciated
Apologies for the long post!

 

First and easy step would to unplug each dimmer/relay suppling power and check the voltage coming out from it. If one’s significantly different to the others I’d suggest replacing that one. Your bus network is failing hence why random things are happening/or not working

 

Hi
You most likely have a cbus power supply failing or it could be input unit failing, bad cbus cable connection or water ingress in an outside input unit.
Check cbus voltage at various switches should be above 25 volts DC (that's my rule) .
Are all the relays/dimmers green cbus leds on .
Unplug both cbus cables from each unit and check the voltage on each relay separately with a short fly lead voltage normally around 35 to 36 volts DC if more than about 38 volts that units power supply is most likely faulty.
Hope this helps.

 

Investigate as mentioned above, if you feel competent and have a reasonable understanding of electrical system. should you want to connect a PC it is relatively straight forward and can provide a lot of useful information.
What you need to see if you have is an interface of some kind, given it's 9 years old see if you have a 5500PCU or 5500CNI again will be in a blue colour or maybe a Wiser which I think you would have been aware off as you can control things from your phone with one.
Provide some feedback if you want further help
Colin

 

Thanks so much for the replies.
Follow up question.

All the lights that are turning on by themselves are all on the same 8 way Dimmer (powered)

Would this be a sign that it’s that dimmer that has the failing power supply issue?

To add to it, on this Dimmer there are 2 x outside lights (no external Clipsal sensors on them) just turn on / off from DLT switch in bedroom. (So standard lights)
+ 2 x lights inside shower (wet room)
Point is > 2 sets of lights that are on this dimmer are in “wet areas” (outside & shower) so even though other lights on this dimmer are turning on randomly could these “wet area” lights cause the dimmer to turn all lights on if the “wet lights” are letting in water.
They are just external graded outside normal spot lights and we have these in various areas outside and can’t see these being an issue. I have changed the lamps in them and they were not wet inside. I do have LED GU10 spot lamps in them. But again can’t see that being the issue. The shower lights are older MR16 spots 12V running of the older style 12v transformers. But never had an issue and can’t remember the last time we needed to change a lamp. They are inset into the bottom of a shelf and well cover from water and splashes, not really able to get wet in any way.
I pulled one down and it was dry.

it didn’t rain yesterday and it happened twice. but we did use the shower!
I struggle to think it’s a “wet issue” and am actually hoping this dimmer could just be the issue and break fully really soon!! Giving us a solid fault to then change that dimmer.

To add to this confusion, 2 weeks ago we had random lights coming on and they were all on a completely different 8 way dimmer.
Only 5 lights on that same dimmer but they all came on.. that’s not happened again (yet) but the problem seems to have moved to this other dimmer above.

perhaps both of these dimmers are failing..

Question. .
If all lights are coming on from one Specific dimmer, is it definitely that dimmer that’s failing?

or can it be another issue and these lights coming on is just a cBus network communication issue from somewhere else?

It’s very frustrating.

Finally and a bit off topic.
I noticed a 4 way universal dimmer has 3 x (Clipsal) load correction devices on 3 of the channels.

so in total there are 3 x load correction devices on 1 x universal dimmer.

I thought the point in the universal dimmers was they could handle LED lamps. (All lamps on this dimmer are LED. Perhaps they were fitted (not by me) to assist in the dimming / stop flickering / fully off of LED.

Is 3 load correction devices on 1 universal dimmer ok?
Or is that not advisable?

I guess they were out there for a reason.

 

It's not the lights getting wet that may cause the problem, thats another story on it's own though.

The issue could be that the cbus wires can get water ingress and this may cause problems, check each RJ45 connection for water.

 

That’s good news I think.. I’ll not ask about “the other story” ha !

Which RJ45 connections should be checked?
You mean at the cabinet? If so it’s bone dry..
not sure where else to check any RJ45.
I do have 3 x external Clipsal motion light sensors.
2 x turns on external LED flood lights
1 x turns on up / down decorative House lighting.
(I can also turn these external lights on manually from switches within the house, no problem)

a long time ago (months) one of the external sensor little plastic screen was corroded / cracked and therefore the decorative lights would come on and off constantly as if It thought something was in its view.

But the whole front of the sensor was replaced for a new one, this was easier than replacing the whole sensor and having to reprogram it all. Basically, they took the Front panel with the screen in it from a new unit and swapped that piece since then the sensor has worked fine.
the problem with the lights turning on in the house has come months after this was done. I guess it wouldn’t do any harm to have a look at these outside Sensors?

however, none of the outside lights Seem to have any issues or come on randomly like these internal ones are. I can also turn them on and off from switches inside the house with no problem. I suspect if the outside light Sensors were faulty I would have issues with the lights coming on on their own randomly?

 

check all cables in outside areas

And the other issue.... update insurance

 

Update insurance, that sounds worrying?
I’ll have to get an electrician to check the connections I guess to the Sensors?

if an external sensor is disconnected to check all the connections will lose its programming?
I don’t really know how C Bus works in this way, I do have some spare Clipsal Like for like external sensors as it goes brand-new in boxes at home. I would worry, though taking off the existing ones would lose their programming??

 

No, in relation to the water in the globes

 

What are globes?
are they light bulbs / lamps?

Or actually inside the sensor, if so would taking the front off and looking inside be enough?
Sorry i also edited and updated my comment just above.

 

Maybe not sure of type.

 

Sorry bit confused.
You mentored to check “water in globes”

what do you mean “Globes”

as in light bulbs / lamps / GU10s

or is “globe” a name for the Clipsal external light sensor?
I don’t understand what a “globe” is.

 

Globe often used term in Australia instead of light bulb/lamp as used in the UK.
C-Bus units do not lose their programming when disconnected, also their physical position on the C-Bus network is irrelevant. So if you changed the PIR sensor location, they would still control the same lights, it is all to do with the programming. Obviously don't change their position.
The C-Bus network normally Pink cat 5 cable has a maximum voltage on it of 36V, reasonably safe to open the external pir sensor and check the connections. ensure that the solid orange and solid Blue conductors are connected to the +ve terminal and Blue/white and Orange/white are connected to the -ve terminal
Left over and unused should now be 4 conductors green and green white also brown and brown/white ensure these are dry and insulated from touching any other wires.
Suggest you start on the one that had issues, note the light it controls may not be relevant to your issue.
RJ 45 connection mentioned are on the dimmers and relays and there is a possibility that these connection or the interconnecting leads may be of and issue.
Last point are the dimmers and relays mounted horizontally, vertically mounted units do not dissipate heat as effectively and can cause premature failure.

 

thank you so much for the information. I will start to investigate further and be sure to feedback,

Question.
if you replace a External PIR Sensor for a new one but in the same location using the same wires will the new sensor need to be programmed?

or will it act and work as the original and turn on the same lights?

I am confident enough to replace the whole sensor but not to programme it with tool kit.

Hoping the existing programming in tool kit just knows there is a sensor on the end of that cable and will continue to work even though it’s a new sensor there?

I have now noticed that all the lights that are randomly coming on are all on the same dimmer as mentioned above, but it’s also the first dimmer in the chain.

As in there is a pink network cable coming in to it from somewhere (I guess the other end must go somewhere in the house From a device.
Then from this first dimmer everything daisychains from it to the other dimmers.

Probably impossible for anyone to know, apart from the person who installed the system Where the other end of the main incoming cable goes to in the house as I suspect that other end would need checking?

Any ideas where to look for the other end of the incoming cable?

Or will that be in tool kit?

Best case scenario is that this dimmer with all the random lights coming on is failing and once swapped everything works however I am now concerned that this being the first dimmer with the incoming data cable could mean that a device feeding into it is actually faulty?

 

to answer your questions i
1 Replacing a sensor or any other piece of C-Bus equipment will require programming.
2 Toolkit would identify the new PIR install but would still require it to be programmed though the old unit's data can be transferred to the new unit.
3 Installers may and hopefully do keep records of their installation, many would also mark their cables to identify each end, for example writing on the cable or using number rings put on them.
4 if there is no identifying mark on the cable then it's not a straightforward job and would require using multimeter and tracing it

Advice bit
Its highly unlikely to be a faulty sensor causing this problem, I'll explain later why

To explain why the focus on the cabling with your is problem, you are describing a remote On condition, a little background for you.
C-Bus has a feature call manual override which can be activated by connecting the spare wires above to C-Bus negative,


Connect the Remote On to C-Bus negative and all the channels will come ON
Connect the Remote Off to C-Bus negative and all the channels will go OFF
if both remote ON and Remote OFF are connected then the OFF is the priority

Your issue is only causing one dimmer (output unit) to go into remote ON condition (normally all would come on) which in itself is strange as all the output units are interconnected inside the distribution board with the premade pink patch leads, unless they are not the original ones or been modified.
Typically, the Remote overrides are not continuous throughout the installation and are often just cut off at the first point they arrive at in the installation. this could be a junction box of some point where the pink cable goes off in different directions around the home, or it may be the first switch or sensor as could be the case in your home.
hence the advice to insulate those conductors.
Possibly damp, dirt, spiders web causing the override to happen in the outside sensor.

The issue is why only the first dimmer in your distribution board, checking the C-Bus connection on the Pink cable RJ 45 is clean and solidly plugged in, bent connectors on the dimmer possible problem but unlikely to cause intermittent issue, would be a permanent problem.

Suggestion, take some photos showing inside your distribution board clearly showing the patch leads between the suspected faulty dimmer and the next one.

At some point you may have to engage an experienced C-Bus installer to help, but doing some simple fault finding may resolve the issue or point the installer in the right direction when their arrive.
Keep notes what you have done and share them with the installer, any info is better than none.
Just out interest you have not had any building work done recently, it wouldn't be the first time another tradesperson damaged a cable and fixed it themselves and maybe not done a good job.

 

I will be over get week so we should get it sorted.

 

What an amazing and helpful reply.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write it, there are not many people in this world that would be so helpful.
I have reached out to a CBUS engineer in the UK that is well known on this forum and he is coming to our house next week. definitely time for the professionals to step in!

The reason that I have been back-and-forth on this post is to try and gain as you have quite rightly suggested as much information to pass on to him as well.

a little information regarding the RJ45 cables between units.
The first and “suspected” (only because it’s that dimmer that all the random lights that come on are connected too, no other reason or confirmation yet)
This dimmer is first in the chain as in there are 2 pink cables coming in from behind the cabinet that are long.

Both these cables are taped together by the looks of it and what I can only suspect is some kind of labeling guide (white paint dabbed on them) that the original installer would know about. Who I have no idea was.

One of the cables is plugged into the first dimmer and the other is just left dangling although does have a RJ45 connector on it..

I wonder if the unused cable which is taped to the one that is being used was a spare? or part of some loop..
Unfortunately, I have no idea of the internal wiring.

The Cbus devices are using the following cables though.

Dimmer 1. Pink main Cbus cable in.
Dimmer 1 > Dimmer 2 - Pink Cbus patch cable
Dimmer 2 > Dimmer 3 - Pink Cbus patch cable
Dimmer 3 > Dimmer 4 - Pink Cbus patch cable
Dimmer 4 > Dimmer 5 - Pink Cbus patch cable

Dimmer 5 > Dimmer 6. Grey cat 5e cable (looks home made, / crimped Rj45 - well made) it’s 1 meter long and needs to be that long due to location of Dimmer 6.

Dimmer 6 > Dimmer 7 - Pink Cbus patch cable.
Dimmer 7 > 12 way relay - Pink Cbus patch cable.

12 way relay > Pc interface white cat5e cable looks
Factory made and quite new.

Can i replace the grey cat5e cable with a new cable as although it seems to look ok it could be 12 years old.

I don’t have any long pink Cbus cable, but do have some new cat6 long quality patch cables.

Worth a try?

I’ve also changed all the short pink Cbus patch cables as I had new spare ones and the original were 12 years old. The looked a little bit twisted and had the odd white line where they had been twisted to go into the dimmers years ago.

Can you use cat6 cables to patch the Cbus units together?

 

Yes no harm in trying other patch leads to see if it solves the problems, but the pink clipsal cat-5 cable had a mains rated outer sheath, which i doubt the others will have.
Cat 6 will also work.
So it worth sticking with the pink cable if possible, if not ensure good separation and segregation from any mains cable, purely for safety, and obviously wiring rules and regulations applicable to the UK.
Good luck solving your issue, ask lots of questions of you new installer and please use the forum if your unsure. Many members on here have 20+ years experience with C-Bus and can provide some guidance.

 

Loved this forum!
Which I knew more about Cbus.
Still love what it looks like and how it works.
Just annoying not really understanding it!

Engineer coming next week and has been on this forum for 25 years. So am very confident he will nail it.
Nothing like a bit of pressure

I’ll swap out the grey home made cat5e patch cable for a network cat6 cable.. I was just concerned outside of the outer rating that pink Cbus cable was in fact wired in a different way?
But looks like you approve as long as it’s kept well away from any mains.

The engineer will probably have longer Cbus cable anyway so it won’t be on long, I’ll try the cat6 network cable now as I have 4 days before he arrives to see if it stops the lights randomly coming on. but defo swap it to pink if he has the cable for extra safety.