C-Bus future

Is there someone who is aware of Schneider-Electric plans for home automation market? Couple years has passed after last interesting news from C-Bus devision.

I am sorry, but dealers come and ask if anyone is alive up there. Should I keep them waiting (for C-Bus which I personally love) or advise to go get some KNX (Smart-Bus, LON etc.) training?

I am asking community because asking this question to sales guys seems irrelevant. Hope R&D has something in the pocket

Thank you

 

There are several new and very exciting projects going ahead for C-Bus. New input and output units with lots more capability.
C-Bus has been carefully considered, and the company has no plans to stop development for this system.

The rate of introduction of new products may not be as high as it once was, but you can expect a few new unit types appearing soon (this year), with more in the pipeline for next year. Part of the design team have been tied up with improvements to the system as a whole. We've got plans that will keep us (me at least) busy for the next 10 or so years.

Thanks for the positive feedback, by the way. It's great to hear from people who appreciate C-Bus as much as we do!

 

Thank you Don and Daniel. I am glad that my favorite product is alive. I believe there is no place over the net, where I could understand it without bothering you.

I am afraid that I am not the only one. I've been speaking with CoolAutomation.com guys and they say they do not see the point in having support for c-bus as "it dies now under Smart-Bus and KNX pressure".

I asked old dealers for feedback 1 month ago. That's what I received:
- climate control is as frustrating as 2 years ago, thermostats look like from 90's, no floor heating support, no pre-defined logic, no easy AC's compatibility
- touchscreen came from CRT TV's era. use ipad? but wait..
- ..no ipad support as years ago, android app not released being a year in beta, still no UTF in windows media plugin
- key switch design and function are the same as 7 years ago. why am i not still using Palm Treo
- audio system same as 3 years ago, no AV control drivers for third party devices, dealers are meant to write themselves and they will not

etc. etc.
guys in S-E UK do not understand sometimes what C-Bus Audio is while their dealers move to KNX and Control4

And you ask what should dealers wait for? OCCUPANCY SENSOR?

 

nickrusanov you summed it up perfectly.

nickrusanov you summed it up perfectly.

Most people in support now have not been there before Schneider, when I tell them about the old days "Clipsal" they don’t understand and tell me they have heard it was different.

I was 100% Clipsal but these days with the local Middies not stocking Clipsal because of all the issues they have with Schneider and being disappointed with the new "Schneider Culture” I am starting to move my customers and followers away.

Comments like

“ Fixing the issues with the CBUS audio system are not a priority. It is not selling very well so we are not wasting engineering resources.”

“Only a couple of people have logged a fault so the problem can not be that bad.”

“We are now supplying the Schneider equivalent product”
The fact that it is a completely different shape with a different terminal layout does not worry them and just use the same part number as well to make us waist more time.

There was a time way back where if you bought Clipsal everything fitted perfectly you could see the thought and engineering Clipsal put into its products. You paid a premium but you enjoyed the quick installation and everything just worked.

I love C-BUS, the engineering and cleverness that I see in the product every day always impresses me. They are and have been some very clever people in the engine room. I just wish the people driving could see and listened to the engine room every now and then.

Charles

 

I'm afraid the future of Cbus is getting very limited, not so much by its products but because their is so much competition in this area with KNX (who are making fast progress in Australia by heavy discounting) and BEG.

We have lost a lot of good projects the last 12 months to BEG products ( which are indeed excellent and perform very well ) BEG system products do not need anywhere near 10% of the engineering or commisioning requirements that C-Bus requires and is much cheaper than C-Bus in all product areas.

BEG products can do almost the same functions, require far less installation costs, and programming and setup is a breeze. I like C-Bus myself but lately I have begum to offer BEG (due to competition) at much better prices that I could achieve with C-Bus products - even after buying them from the distributor. C-Bus has become un-competitive both in installation, programming & setup costs. Which means that system integrators like me are at a loss, while clipsal make very good profit on their hardware - although I suspect that in time clipsal will start losing its maket share also?

Don't get me wrong, I like C-Bus but I think the future is dim?

 

If I purchased from corporations on the basis of their culture- past, present or future, I would have to preclude myself from buying all of the products being made by the top 1000 corporations. Let's not start about chemical waste and toxic residues from manufacture.

I personally look at what I need to get done and I dont see any limitations in CBUS at all. The fact that I get local support is worth more than the actual product. Try Lutron and see how far your budget goes.

I have met several people who claim to be doing something better than Clipsal and they were all one-man-shows with small pockets. Meanwhile I am still upgrading the sites I did in 1998 and having seamless integration.

90% of the problem with CBUS is greedy installers. I have seen people get quoted $20,000 to do something that costs $5,000 in addition to the wiring contract for the whole building. Where does this $15,000 go ? It goes into making the product impossible to afford and gives a bad impression.

Almost every place I go in Sydney someone wants $500 for 30 minutes of work <<<< true story. How do you justify claiming huge programming fees when the system has self learning.

THe mark of a good business is being able to deliver premium grade products on budget. To deliver a good design with the future in mind. All the people who work off price will eventually have their work thrown into a rubbish bin and replaced by something designed better for the same price.

 

C-Bus design in 30 minutes?

Hi tobex, these days $500 is about all customers want to pay for C-Bus design and if you think you can do a system in 30 minutes, design, install, speak to end customer about their requirements, consult with building designers, builders & electricians and commissioning it then you must be bloody good?

Sure it may take 15 minutes to download and install a C-Bus project from your laptop, but what about the design, traveling time, telephone calls, petrol costs, parking fees and all the rest?

You may love working with C-Bus, Spend you spare hours doing unpaid work, but your can't feed a belly with love alone?

I agree with pgold, C-Bus is becoming uncompetitive!
And 95% of the Cbus systems can be done with stuff like BEG and commissioned in about 30 minutes. The electricians I know think C-Bus installs are far too expensive and complicated to do and they much prefer BEG?

 

If car tyres were priced the same way the same way CBus is priced, none of us would be able to afford to drive our cars.

We need to collectively move out of the arts and crafts approach and move into the coordinated teams approach.

Team 1- blueprint

Team 2- install

Team 3- programming

What I dont understand is why programming has to be done onsite. I imagine is has much to do with crippling the site so that only a person with an interface can do any changes. I never do that - I can log in from any place and make changes. I can be there 5 minutes after the email arrives telling me what the changes need to be. Only takes a few minutes to suggest some programming changes. Most of my clients are doing changes too. Isnt that what CBUS is all about ? Anyone can do it ?

Perhaps I price my equipment with a margin that is sensitive to the client and make my money on having a long and stable relationship. I not only install CBUS but all the AV equipment, the computers, the routers and presently
LED lights.

An average install is worth about $5,000 for a suburban 3 bedroom home. And I stress that we are talking about additional cost above traditional methods and not walk-in cost. We are also talking about sensible upgrades and not super-amazing over-hyped installs.

If an average 3 bedroom house will cost $20,000 to wire then it will cost $25,000 to do the same with added CBUS. But wait ... what about the HVAC, the light fittings, the internet, the pay-tv, the computers, amplifiers, speakers, alarms, laser printers, servers, routers .........

While a customer is not a cash-cow, they are a consumer and it falls on the shoulders of the vendor to find the necessary interest and energy to help all that money flow in our direction in a sensible way.

That $5,000 is worth about $90,000 over 10 years. All it takes is a little bit of care and participation.

There are thousands of people out there being told they dont have enough money to own CBUS. That to me is insane. I have done jobs for $1,100 that fitted the clients brief perfectly.

 

the problem with c-bus is that there are systems on a market that evolve, while c-bus remains in old good 2008

 

Evolution is something that creators dont understand. But even if you can install 2013 Electronics in your 2012 house I can find 50 things that are still 1920.

 

you think Schneider does not want to sell C-Bus as Hi-Tech, just good tech? well, maybe

 

I think Cbus is about 40 years ahead of house design.

 

Hi Nickrusanov
Regarding the Coolmaster Interface.
What is it not doing now that you wish it to do when connected to CBus?
I have been very happy with its operation using the logic provided by djaggar.

 

The problem with C-Bus is they are becoming out-dated against other systems and are more expensive all up (parts,installation,engineering,support) - the technology & prices remain more like good old 1999?

C-bus parts are mass produced at low cost china prices, but sold here at huge margins to support high profits, sales & administrative overheads, advertising, sports sponsorships (car racing etc) free seminars, field trips etc.

One wonder's what things would be like without unnecessary overheads that don't really benefit the end users or integrators?

 

This thread does not seem to be in the interest of CBus forum users.
There is a lot of non specific opinions and product critcism which is not going to assist anyone.

 

sorry to keep this silly thread alive... but i just HAVE to jump in here.

first of all, you get what you pay for. my favorite saying is "Buy cheap, get ****." (i will trademark that some day !!!) cheap stuff simply cannot and will not do the same things that highly engineered items can do. nor will they last as long.

"it's becoming out-dated technology": why? how? clipsal always seem to be adding new products to their line to fill any gaps. users make suggestions for new products too. from a personal perspective i HATE it when a company completely changes their products and functionality, thus effectively rendering the existing stuff obsolete. exception - if there is a good reason to then of course do it and move on, but if there's no good reason then why do it? it does pretty much everything you want it to do, and it does it reliably. what more do you want? evolution of a product is only good if it achieves much more than an existing product. i'm sure if clipsal did what some have asked for then those same people would whine about having to turf all their obsolete stuff and start anew.

i took a quick look at the alternatives suggested (KNX and BEG) and i started laughing. with c-bus i recall going to the website and reading detailed info about how the whole system works and even all the tools needed to set it up, programming/installation info... everything to give me a good understanding even before i got involved. so what did this other website tell me? a fancy story and no technical stuff whatsoever. and their contact details? a web form with no email, physical address, or contact number! don't russian scammers do this kind of thing? so you want me to start using this product/company and recommend to customers? NO, not for me thanks, i'll stick with c-bus.

 

I think we are talking about the difference between a good communicator and a guy with a tool in his hand shrugging his shoulders. A good communicator can solve any problem, can find options and can give the client a sense that the job is being taken care of.

Usually a good communicator will find a poor communicator impossible to deal with. THis is what we are seeing all over the market. Those who want to deliver the results versus those who cant be bothered hanging around.

 

well, plug and play without programm coding? climate control from DLT? ipad climate control? heating and coolmaster control from same device?

i don't even know if coolmaster will work if i connect it to PACA or RS232 on Spectrum - I have to ask if anyone already tried it.

all that normal installer can have today, installing ABB (or other KNX), Control4 HDL-Bus or even BTicino

 

The list of features people CAN have and the list of features people actually use has about 30:1 ratio. This is because designers of electronics sometimes want to please everyone and anyone. It does not mean that is how everyone thinks.

In a low budget home, CBUS is perfectly valid and enjoyable with none of those additional costs. It reminds me of the movie WALL-E where the human race has robots to press buttons for them.