C-Bus to DALI install problems

Thanks Chris
I wonder about older ballasts though.
There are some Tridonic ballasts on site which after testing and discussion with Tridonic I was told will not store a resume from power loss state.
They did indicate that later versions will.
It's not like it's a question you would think needs to be asked but hopefully things are better now.

Hello Ashleigh
I pulled that info from Vossloh.
It's just a shame I didn't find it 3 years ago.
http://old.vossloh-schwabe.com/images/onecms/site/pdf/Montageanleitung_FL_EVG_GB.pdf

 

That's true but I really like the idea of having 128 channels of control in 6 modules of din space.

 

.......and as a sparky I think it's time for grid wiring lights - it's just that maybe they should get Don Terrace to design the stuff; but not necessarily some of the Clipsal guys who can only get the "LIGHTING" application reflected in their LED switch status but not the "DALI" and "TRIGGER CONTROL" to do the same.... or is that an "undocumented feature"?

 

Seriously though, maybe DALI CONTROL should make a DALI ballast from the ground up that has all the DALI features so that it complies with the Standard but have it's ramp rates the same as C-Bus and "yay!", no more level jumping when the finger is taken off the C-Bus dimmer switch.

Or better still, Dimable ballasts that can have a C-Bus address and be part of the C-Bus network - no gateway and directly controllable. Just whack an ST7 chip into the ballast and away you go; the fully integrated and ultimately controlled lighting system. It would revolutionise the industry and make 1-10V, DSI and DALI redundant and what a deal! They can put a C-Bus card into a security system, a pump controller, etc.; why not a ballast?

I'd like to see that!

 

Some observations

G16_DALI:= GetCBusLevel("CAS", "DALI", "CAS G16");
Note that when you use the above type of command you are getting the C-Bus DALI application group level. This is the level of a group on the C-Bus side of the DALI gateway. Not necessarily the actual real life level of the group on the DALI side of the gateway.

Its value will reflect the last C-Bus command given to it. Not necessarily what the actual DALI ballast is doing in reality. Reasons why the actual light may be at a different level to the CBus DALI group you are 'getting the level of' include if that ballast is part of another DALI group or scene which has been subsequently activated, or if the DALI ballast has changed state due to power failure or network fault recovery settings.

The point being, GetCBusLevel("CAS", "DALI", "CAS G16"); is not necessarily polling the actual DALI ballast in the field to ask it what state it is in now, more it is recalling what it last told it to do.

Switching the DALI ballast power supply is pretty prone to causing the real world state of the light to come out of synch with what C-Bus recalls it as.

 

SBL,
I understand what I'm getting. I understand that I'm not actually reading the DALI level but the C-Bus level. And in my later post we see that it does work. We get the level and then set it to 0 when the PIR goes off; when the PIR turns on we send the C-Bus message to set the level to the last C-Bus setting. The problem was that the logic was on a different C-Bus network and the B&W Touch Screen cannot see what is on that that network until the item it's looking for actually changes value - it's not like the Colour Touch which can sync between networks in the background.

Ashleigh,
I understand that about the DALI protocol (dimming rates) that's why I went on to say about putting a C-Bus chip into dimmable ballast. It was all tongue-in cheek really. But imagine............ how much could we save in gateways, switchboard real estate, cabling (we could grid wire lights) etc.?

 

Well, there you go..... I never knew. I've only been around C-Bus since late 2005 so just a pup really. Thanks Ashleigh

 

Dali

Hello, I am engineer of making DALI ballasts.

In default the ballasts will be back to level when power off and on (power on level 255 not allowed). when power on, they will go to power on level, if the DALI line not powered when lamp turn on, they will go to DALI line fail level.

If you want the light back to level before turn off power,there are two solutions:

1. use your controller/gateway to record level of all lamps before shut off power, and restore their levels one by one when turn on power again.

2. custom made ballasts support of restore level. we can let the ballasts record the actual level at following conditions:
1. tested input power is low but enough for saving.
2. present level not equal to past level stored.
3. power on level is set as 255.

and when power on again it will read stored level if power on level set as 255.

 

Mainly two reasons:
1. controller/gateway send commands erase the address.
2. the ballasts have problems. mainly because they save or read when power is not enough so their address missed. when I made my first trial ballast years ago, it has such a problem.

 

If I can work with Clipsal , ......

 

Isn't technology wonderful?

Samlou, thanks for that. The DALI line is never powered down, just the power supply to the ballasts. I had already done as you have said:
1. Read the gateway level before power off
2. Restore the gateway level on power on
and it works just fine.

The problem turned out to be that logic is used to do it and the logic controller used is on a B&W touch screen on the adjacent network and it isn't behaving as expected. I put a logic controller on the same network and it behaves well.

Thanks for taking the time to read & post.

 

May I help? I think these problems(cost,standby power,and performance.) can be resolved. I will be very interested to design a ballasts directly support Cbus for Clipsal if Clipsal would like to offer communication protocal interface.

Also I will be interested to gather more bad information of DALI. may be a ballast support standard DALI and with extend function more friendly with Cbus is possible.

 

Power Failure

I was reading this thread, and I have similiar problems. I'm programming C-bus/DAli gateway, and having some problems with power failures.
A specific floor has around 200-250 Dali Ballasts. All distribute in different areas, GM offices, manager offices, open areas, etc... The project consists in controlling the floor with DALI through C-bus network. I have relays constantly turn on the channel so that the DALI ballast is the one thats trns on or off the light. I have sensors in the offices and public areas and each sensor controls a scene saved at a PACA unit, which also has a logic module programm to send command of light level dimming.
All of this is just starting to work just fine, but the problems begins when there is a power failure. Two things has happened the DALI gateway is set to restore level = 0% and the multi sensor is set to "restore" in the power failure tab. But when I simulated a power failure and restablish power all the offices goes off (which should be fine) but the offices that has people working won't go on again. The restore function of the multisensor should do that.

If not, what can I do, to solve this problem?
our client is pretty upset.

By the way I'm using Phillips Ballast, and I have let them run for al least 100 hourse at it?s full capacity.

 

in standard DALI, DALI line power failure and main power off will not store any status information automatically. it will not back to the before status when recovery. only go to <power on level> and < power failure level>.