Cbus and System Design

Hi all.

Can anyone recommend someone who can do some residential lighting design, as well as Cbus integration. In particular, they would need to be fairly up to date on knowledge about Cbus and CFL (possibly Megaman Dors), as our basix assssment requires Flouro lighting throughout a lot of the house.

I live in Sydney, on the North Shore.

Thanks in advance.

Peter.

 

Did you just want to get someone to do a proposal on how to map out all the wiring and control units and then get an electrician to install as per map ?

 

Yes, that would be great, but more importantly I need some advice on what type of lights, how many, and where to put them. If anyone knows much about the Megaman CFL's, I'm quite interested in using some of these as well.

Thanks.

Peter.

 

Didn't your architect specify the lighting design ? Architectural features and electrical systems are two completely different things and throwing all this into one pot will result in some degree of confusion.

For starters the furniture plan, the artwork on the walls and the available light all dictate the seasonal requirements for the lighting scheme. Then comes the elements of coffers, recessed and indirect light.

Once the colour scheme of the rooms has been calculated the backsurface of the illumination has to be corrected so that the green light of the CFL and the prevailing colour of the room does not make everything brown, muddy and drab.

The other thing to be aware of is that your lights do not run 24x7 and when they do run you would prefer to have a warm and pleasant experience of a room. CFL looks very harsh with wooden floors unlike halogen which adds to the ambience of wooden floors (warm colours in tandem).

Strips of LED lighting give exceptional profiles under cupboards, inside cupboards and at work spaces. Using different kinds of lights will achieve a greater number of interior highlights.

The seasonal variation of light, colour of the sky and other colours inside a house all matter. You may want to go back to the design stage and get a real plan of the interior. Otherwise this puppy is going to try and bite its own tail.

 

OK Tobex,

We have all just worked out you have too much money.

If I ever build a house the very last thing I will do is get an architect involved - (sorry to all you architects out there, but seeing as this is a technical forum I an not expecting any to read this and if they do I am comfortable that my address is not recorded anywhere in this forum.) My experience with architects is they waste great wads of their clients money just so it can be said that the place was "architect designed"

There goes my invite to the Architects of Australia Association, Christmas function

 

The thing is Phil.H is that you spend the bulk of your life walking around inside masterpieces. It is no wonder that you feel confident and well informed about the type of architecture YOU desire.

Someone with 5 years of University and several more years of design training is in a strong position to give advice on lifestyle (the art of experiencing space).

It is not that I have money, it is that I have 15 books on the subject which took no less than 6 years to hunt down and no expense spared.

For the above reasons you have specified I declined several projects as I refuse to put my name on the design. Things like elevators which open onto the back patio just to name one. I am infamous for demolishing drawings in minutes.

Then there are people who sell "C-Bus" and people who sell "interaction". How you use a space defines the product. I truly have to wonder why some people insist on controlling the hot water system with C-bus when it is perfectly clear that there is a serious liability issue with failed channels and knock-on effects (one example). IMHO 90% of people would not care less if the system was operated by trained mice so long as it always worked perfectly.

There is a divergence between ideas and concepts. An idea is a light bulb moment and a concept is a slowly illuminating groups of light coming together as a mood. No doubt, the masters of C-Bus borrow from architects as though most of their ideas were original ones. We should both admit (whether by agreement or in total conflict with) architects provide the right stimulation for matching the design to the interior.

Please don't tell me you hate Utzon .... we have that kind of tradition to ignore genius in Australia I suppose.

 

Thanks for the replys fellas.

Didn't really want to get the architect involved again, been some hassles there. I can see what you mean about the process going around in circles and we don't want to spend a fortune on the design, just get some advice on how many lights to use, and where best to put them. I'm not looking for an architectural masterpiece, just something that isn't too bright or too dim.

I hear what you're saying about the CFL's, but unfortunately, BASIX has required we use them in most of the house.

I know with the CFL's, you cant use them on CBus dimmers, but with the Megaman Dors dimming CFL's, can use program a CBus relay to turn them on/off/on/off/on quickly to set a dimmed level?

Would most system integrators be able to give this sort of advice, or do I need to get some professional design service involved?

Thanks in advance.

Pete.

 

Most interior desicrators have a light meter (and if they dont avoid them) where you can measure the ambient light.

Dont forget that dimming is also done with blinds / curtains not just expensive control modules.

I would imagine that one of the better installers in the C-Bus recommended list would be able to give you an opinion and perhaps you want more than one so that you can compare the ideas and see if they match your budget.

I use daylight CFL for taking photos and that seems to be an improvement. If there is a tri-phosphor in CFL I would certainly use that.

 

Not sure how you know where I have spent the bulk of my life or even the bulk of my career - very few know the full extent of those two decades (no wonder I feel so tired). I do know what you mean when you say architects deal with the experience of space though. The relevant issue is technology impacts on everything we do, see, experience - well mostly. In consulting on security designs, automation etc the best success comes from understanding the human elements, flow and use of space. Seeing as the architects are the creators of the space they are the ones who should know abouts its flow and intended use. When I engage architects in this fashion they openly embrace everything that comes out after setting this understanding. Doesn't change the fact that some architects are arty, airy wastes of time and $.

Bugger that Christmas invite is looking dubious again...

 

WARNING Wil Robinson - Danger - Danger. You will not get C-Bus to behave anything like this. Not for a series of reasons. Megamans are really basic fittings please don't think of trying anything like what you have mentioned above..

 

That only applies to the ones that actually bother to turn up. The ones that decline residential work (even ones who I think are great) really stand for nothing at all. Having creative control over walls and surface finishes seems to matter so much to some.

Once again we refer to the role of technology and what it offers. It offers far more than people who live without it can imagine and far too little for those who are consumed by it and still I have to design and build my own air-purification systems from scratch. With all this technology I would really like to know how I can get cleaner air into a city home.

 

Thanks again for the replys.

I suspected as much regards dimming the Megamans. Looks like I might have to put halogens of some description in the living areas, and leave the CFL's for the rest of the house.

If I was to put the CFL's onto dimming circuits in C-Bus (rather than relays), can I just set them to 100% (to give me the option to put in incandescent or halogens on the same circuit later)? I think I have read that this is possible on the forum, but that someone has had some problems?

Pete.

 

You can set the ramp times to a smaller interval for CFL so that the power is more instantaneous. If you revert back to halogens then you can allow the lights to go to full power over a period of 300-800ms.

Ramp speeds are useful in preserving the filament in halogens and more pleasing to the eye, unfortunately the CFL does not operate in this mode and usually wants full power.

 

NO - don't do this !

The dimmers don't turn completely "off" at 0%.. There is a trickle current, which normal filament lamps sink to the neutral and thus turn the channel to 0V (off).

When you put CFLs on a dimmer channel, there is no resistance to neutral, so the lamp tries to start, fails, tries to start, fails... this only affects SOME lamps and it's very annoying (and kills the lamps too).

The solution is to design the system properly. Match the C-Bus outputs and loads correctly

Three comments...

1. Look at the overall building design. It might be that adding (for example) a washing line will be enough to get the Basix Points over the line, and therefore you don't have to compromise the lighting. The last time that I checked, lighting is OPTIONAL in Basix - so there are no "requirements" that you need to meet.

Don't dismiss this aspect... Basix compliance is easy to achieve if common sense is used in the design process. Planting, having eaves, no Westward-facing windows, awnings and sun shades, a washing line, rainwater tanks, etc - these are the way to meet Basix and not compromise your lifestyle. Or, you can ignore those things and do it the hard way I guess?

2. You are spending hundreds of thousands on a house, considering a few tens of thousands on a C-Bus system... and then quibbling about paying for a proper designer to do the lighting ?

I can assure you that a GOOD architect or interior designer is the person you need to pull this together. No matter how much "contractors" hate these people (good onya PhilH), they have a very important role to play.

If not, why not just ask your local "expert" wire-jerker electrician to do the lighting and C-Bus designs ?

3. If you must use CFLs then DON'T use the retrofit lamps. Use proper light fittings that are specifically designed for proper Compact Fluorescent lamps. They will work properly, give good performance, and allow you to dim them. The retrofit lamps are a compromise in ALL aspects of their design...

Hope that helps (probably it will only confuse things further) !!

 

The advanced members of this forum are worth listening to. I would take the free advice as being valuable.

 

I appreciate all the reply's and input, and accept there are different viewpoints out there. I will in the end form my own no doubt, but until then, let the reply's and banter flow, and I'll keep learning.

Thanks to all who have replied.

Pete.

 

Today we had the GE rep drop off some of the GE E27 / B22 240V dimmable CFLs lamps to test. We got some 13W and a 23W...

Initial testing shows that they dim quite nicely on Trailing Edge dimmers, but suffer quite a lot of "snap on" when used on a Leading Edge 1A Cbus dimmer. We haven't tested them on Leading Edge

The 13W lamp is FAR better at restarting in a dimmed state, but neither is really much good at all. So, they work good when used on a Toggle dimmer, but are absolutely hopeless on a Memory Dimmer.

We're still testing, but it seems that on the 1A dimmer modules, you MUST set the dimmer module to 10% minimum level.

Anyway, just some news.. as I was totally amazed at how well the lamps worked overall, especially considering the fact that they are being connected to a phase chopping dimmer rather than a "proper" control gear !

Not a BAD compromise... I will advise further regarding Power Factor, actual power consumption, etc ASAP

John

 

Good too hear John, thanks for sharing that information.