CBus Support - Cash Reward

Greetings,

I am about to commence construction of a home in Mawson Lakes SA and will be putting in CBUS and minder! It has been a long time between drinks (cbus training) for me and I will be looking for some local design and implementation support but don't want to be paying stupid hourly rates given I should be able to do most of it myself. If anyone is working for the man but wants to get a bit of rewarding experience on the side, feel free to email me at [email protected].

 

Dang .... just flew out a few hours ago.

 

Any interest in playing smart sparky?

Looking for an Electrician who lives N/E of Adelaide that is willing to help out on the dark side of a CBUS install. I have got all of the bits.

I want to do the programming and play your cable monkey but will leave the sparky bits to you.

Don't care if you are young and new to it, if you are a qualified sparky with CBus interest, thats good enough for me.

Not looking for charity so if you are interested in earning a few bucks to have a play with a cbus/minder install drop me a line.

[email protected]

 

what a waste of bandwidth!

Seems the sparkies with cbus knowledge really are a bit precious.

Shame that!

 

Look at it this way. What is the incentive ? It would take twice as long, pay half as much and would have the incorrect bill of materials. So that would mean it would not be finished on the first visit.

Then your insurance company would hold the sparky as the professional agent for the whole job even if you the home owner make a mistake.

The permits required to terminate Cat5 and 240V are extremely expensive and every part of your "monkey" work would have to be double checked.

To be honest, you would be better off paying the $1000 for the course and having a chat to some of the guys doing the classes. Maybe one of the installers at the course would like to have a go at your house.

I myself wouldnt relish the opportunity to have a novice do my C-Bus and having cleaned up so many messed up installations I know what and where things go totally wrong.

Any person who is a full time guru would be wary of stepping into this installation.

Ever see this joke ?

Labour Rate per hour
-------------
$50 if you do nothing
$90 if you ask questions
$150 if you help

 

To paraphrase;

The permits required to terminate Cat5 have been obtained. Quite cheaply in my view.

To be honest, I paid the $1000 for the introductory course then paid the 600 for the intermediate course and of course I chatted to some of the guys doing the classes. After helping them understand the programming logic I then advised them on legal issues and then gave them a few pointers in regard to the modern building technologies that really do exist outside the insulated world of electrical installation.

It occurred to me that a sparky is a sparky is a sparky, and a sparky who purports to be a CBus Guru is something to avoid because he probably thinks the arcing between his cheeks is the sun and charges accordingly.

I myself wouldn't relish the opportunity to have a novice electrician do my C-Bus and having seen and inspected so many bodgey electrical installations I know what they really do and where things go totally wrong on the bill.

Any person who purports to be a full time guru would be wary of stepping into this installation because he simply won't be able to charge the rates he thinks he should get.

I personally see great value in researching the product, getting the correct 'bill of materials" (aka bitz) having it laid out and make it very easy for the tradey doing the job.

Ever see this joke ?

Labour Rate per hour
-------------
$50 if you do nothing
$90 if you ask questions
$150 if you help
$350 per hour for Legal Advice
$500 for court attendance

I just don't see the funny side of the Joke that's all.

Any questions? I would prefer some answers myself.

 

So then what is the goal here. Are you looking for a distributed zone design or a central point for all functions ?

Without parameters ........ its a black box.

 

what am I looking for

I am trying to achieve the ubiquitous complete automation solution. You know room empty, lights off, vents closed etc. Obviously lighting controls and zones etc. I will also unpack the minder and see if I can remember how to fire it up and get that to run a lot of the smarts.

I am sure everything has been done before but I just want to do as much as I can legally do myself and I always do a lot of research first, much to the chagrin of some it seems.

The problem is I really do know what I don't know and try to rectify the situation by researching it.

I am challenged by A/V distribution but I will get to that. I don't think there is a StarServe forum and question the value of using RF but I refuse to cough up for AMX or Crestron when HTPC's are almost there both value and performance wise.

I figured those on a forum like this would love the opportunity to push and inspire others as many other tech forums do.

Like I said, I don't mind the critics, I have cast many of them aside before and am happy to do so again.

 

Based on your description there is about 60 hours of work at $30 on the design side. Then another 200 hours on the install, test, code and scripting side.

Something like this
-------------------
You have the following design groups
- Lights
- Power
- Heating / cooling
- Venting / circulation
- cooking / toilet vents
- LAN
- RF
- PayTV
- IR (infra-red)
- Phone
- Alarm
- Internet


- TV antenna
- FM antenna
- GSM antenna
- Weather sensors
- Curtain / Window systems / shutters

- C-Bus layout
- Control area
- RCD / MCB
- Main swithes
- Lightning protection
- Over voltage protection

- Keypad locations
- GPO locations
- Design rule provisions

- Door openers
- Garage door interconnects
- Garage door auto closer
- gate systems

- CCTV
- Security recorder
- Mailbox sensor

- AV systems
- MP3 servers
- File servers
- TV recorders
- DVD storage system (video on call)
- Speakers

- water consumption readings
- power consumption readings

- Pool sensor
- Pool heating system

- UPS power
- Filtered power

For the japanese
- bath sensor
- bath heater
- bath water level controler

For Bill Gates
- Follow me "occupancy readers"
- Personal settings

Then you have the actual routing of the cables. The coding, validation and scripting.

This is just a rough list. Im sure that with some careful planning I could find a longer list.

 

I hear you Tobex

Now we are getting constructive.

Something like this
-------------------
You have the following design groups

- Lights - DONE
- Power - DONE
- C-Bus layout - DONE
- Control area - DONE
- Keypad locations - DONE
- GPO locations - DONE
- Venting / circulation - DONE
- cooking / toilet vents - DONE
- LAN - DONE
*Gigabit router cat6 and pre-N takes care of this
- Internet DONE
* probably via the lan but I could be wrong!
- Phone - DONE
* xen alpha/axis takes care of that
- Curtain / Window systems / shutters - DONE
* some interesting concepts on EBay and not Somfy pricing!
- CCTV - DONE
- Security recorder - dedicated hard drive on server

- MP3 servers DONE - Disc 2 on Server
- File servers DONE - Disc 3 on Server
- TV recorders Done - Disc 4 on Server - oh and disc 5 on server, well that gives me the security of RAID
- DVD storage system (video on call) - Trying to get a Sony 3/400 DVD Changer in.
- Speakers DONE and wire obtained
- UPS power Done APC 1000
- Filtered power - Trust in APC
- Over voltage protection - Trust in APC
- Alarm - Done
* Minder
- Door openers - DONE
* Handles
- Garage door interconnects - DONE - I think that means GPO's for Garage doors or reed switches to show status in minder!
- Garage door auto closer - DONE I got Glideroll to throw one in with the Auto Opener
- gate systems - Don't need one.

- Heating / cooling
* Automation interactivity. I think this is something of a pipe dream still. Looks good in brochures but in reality I think it is a very high bar to clear.

- water consumption readings - Leave it to Bill
- power consumption readings - Bill again

- RF - Stuck for now but may just go Starserve pro and sell the bits i don't need like the ethernet anchor and the phone plugs!!!
*MMM RF??
- PayTV
* RF or composite????
- TV antenna
- FM antenna
- GSM antenna
- IR (infra-red)
- AV systems

- Weather sensors
* will pre wire but too hard for now

- Mailbox sensor
* I just gotta get me one of these. What are they!!!!!!!!

For the japanese - do i look Japanese?
For Bill Gates - Is he the Bill who monitors water and power usage?

Then you have the actual routing of the cables. The coding, validation and scripting.
* Would that be lables, crimps and testing and putting in the right sockets? What year of the apprenticeship do they focus on Dymo Labling techniques?


OK given that when one takes time to actually read the list and consider what it really said, removed the puffery, consolidate the repetition, exhaust the smoke and clean the mirrors, it appears that despite not being an ELECTRICIAN, I have attended to a great deal of the 60 hours of work @ $30 per hour. For the remainder, wouldn't it be great if someone was to set up a forum where people who really wanted to understand something like the link between CBus and Electricity could go and ask some questions and get straight answers so the Electrician doesn't pull this crap on them?



- RCD / MCB
- Main swithes
- Lightning protection
- Design rule provisions



- Pool sensor
- Pool heating system


Now about that mailbox sensor......!

 

Now that we know what you have done I should point out that you then have to explain it to an electrical contractor. Which is why it takes 60 hours.

You can spend 1000 hours in planning and for the next person that comes along they still have to invest in their own understanding regardless.

Cable routing is the most important function of a smart home. From your descriptions I think you are unaware of the limitations of your concepts because you are trying to converge all of your technolgies into the smallest number of units.

Unfortunately that is not how technology functions. Systems which are intended to be reliable must function independently.

Therefore,
- door systems
- alarms system
- CCTV
- phone systems

Then you must also consider, but not always install, the fire exit and emergency conditions so that you still have lights in the event of a fire or other event.

Systems which must be reliable standalone must not be converged with other systems. This is for insurance purposes.

Lastly, if someone is going to sign your occupancy certificate it really makes no difference how much of the work you have done yourself and what materials you have bought. The person who signs needs to be satisfied that your house will be safe to live in. That is what you are paying for.

 

Convergence

Tobex,

you suggest that;

"From your descriptions I think you are unaware of the limitations of your concepts because you are trying to converge all of your technolgies into the smallest number of units. "

The only system I would be converging is hard drives and softwre for the video monitoring. The alarm will be Minder/Thinkboxx, the CCTV will be standalone (I think), the phone will be an Axis or Alpha.

I am probably going to overkill this system in order to future proof it as much as possible. There is no doubt many applications I havent even considered as yet and you have inspired me to cautiously ask another question.

 

There is no such thing as future proof. There is only overkill. Anything you install 2 years from now will be half the price and twice as good.

All you need to know is the cabling design of the system. Install the cabling and wait for the prices to drop.

I know several people who paid $100K+ for a Linn MP3 digital audio system. That power now also resides in SLIM-MP3 lan driven music systems. Something like 7% of the cost.

After much whining to NAS developers it is now also possible to obtain a "headless" system for AV to drive SLIM-MP3 interfaces.

That is only one example .... given the desire i am certain that I could come up with many more.

The other thing I wanted to tell you is that 90% of the money achieves 10% of the results and 10% of the money achieves 90% of the results. I call it the 90-10 rule.

I think at some stage you will find out how true it is when you get to be 90% finished and need someone to do the other 10%.

 

Minder - thinkboxx security

Hi phoneman,
Your idea of using Minder as a security system is fine in principle, one thing you will need to be cautious of is your insurance company. Minder / Thinkboxx is not a recognised security system, and in the unfortunate need to make a future insurance claim, they will do an awful lot of investigation to negate any claims.
I have programmed dozens of minders as security systems, but to achieve the full function of a security system (e.g Bosch solution 16 uses approx 1600 lines of code) is a big ask, and can possibly be better achieved using the new C-Bus enabled Homesafe panel..
Good luck with the new home, Mawson lakes is a great location.

DB

 

thinkboxx

That is a point I had never considered and a very sound one.

Scarey even! I need to look a little closer.

 

Totally agree Darren.

There are a number of panels that interface with C-Bus - Clipsal Homesafe 5400, ELK M1 and Concept.

Each panel has it's pro's and con's.

 

I would be more then happy to help wire your place, but i am in the uk

but i could help this time next year, as i am planning a working holiday. I would like to move to Oz in a few year if not before.

My plan would be to come over for about 4-6 weeks and try and do some c-bus work. then i could see if i like working Oz and give me a foot in the door if and when i make the big move.

If anyone can help me it would be gr8

 

Sorry Darren

With all due respect, I have to dissagree with you. We've installed hundreds of Minders and have around 70 systems with 8 monitoring companies. The alarm companies all have 'masks' for the Minder panels and they work fine. The coding wasn't too difficult... we even have some on securatel lines and GSM.

We get regular calls to setup systems installed by other companies for security companies who's techs don't know how to program a Minder.

BTW... Phoneman has to have a recognised automation panel (recognised by Delfin) in order to meet the encumbrance at Mawson Lakes. The alarm panels you mentioned don't comply with that requirement

cheers

 

Insurance companies

Comformist,

You may be right. I only speak from experience having had a customer torch his own home and trying to write it off as a burglary / arson job.
I spent two days beibng interogated by the Insurance company including security licence and background checks, to full installation docs and tech specs on the hardware.
I agree Minder, in the right hands can be a great security system, I learned form one of the best - Gary Sayer, but if it is not programmed right it will never work.

 

The average domestic grade security panel has a couple of thousand lines of bullet proof code embedded. They also have a modem allowing download and central station monitoring comms - as standard. Programming domestic grade panels is now a case of enabling / disabling features via standard program locations. This means responsibilty for system functions is with the manufacturer. Of course responsibility for system desing, programming and function is with the installer. When you start with a Minder you start from scratch. There are a few people (about 4) who can get a minder to function as a "domestic grade" security panel. For anyone else out there FORGET IT. Over the years I have used many Minder systems. I never have and never will use a Minder as a security system. In this day and age if you would like to use a minder as a security system you should put your efforts into something more productive like, re-inventing the wheel.

PS - I have only been licensed as a security consultant since 1993