Controlling multiple groups easily without using a scene

Hi,

First and foremost, I am a newbie. I had the opportunity to stick in a lighting control system when refurbishing my house and chose clipsal C-BUS because a sales rep came forward and showed some flashy demos which sold it to me. More than seven grand (in sterling) later and a mad rush with two qualified Clipsal installers later, I find myself with the following components which comprise my sytem:

5 glass fronted Saturn DLTs
2 Neo DLTs
4 6-gang saturn switches
2 'Senpill' light/IR/movement sensors
1 PC interface (RS232)
4 8-channel 1A dimmer modules
2 8-channel 10A relay modules

I have a computing background so was more than happy to take on the system after the installers left.

The learning curve has been great but I feel I have a pretty decent setup now. There is one huge snag though and I've reached a dead-end after searching this forum and reading loads of posts.

Basically, due to the limitations of the DLTs and the practicalities of normal use, I'm trying to find a way to control multiple outputs (or 'groups' I suppose, even though we're talking single circuits from the dimmers/relays) within one button push.

For example, I'd like to group together the lounge and bay window circuits to use as a 'virtual' group in certain situations. The physical wires for these two groups teminate in completely different places - one in a downstairs dimmer and because of the cable runs, one in the loft dimmer (the two sets of dimmers/relays are linked by the pink Cat5 and the system works fine as one network). I have got as far as playing with Logic Groups, and created a group called 'Lounge + Bay' but it seems to become very confused, as do I, after a while and I can't seem to get it to behave, especially when using Scenes to control the composite group. I have had it working - for example one of my sensors switches on a group called 'Kitchen, Fridge + Cupboards' which is 3 outputs, two on different dimmers, one on a relay, upon movement, and fades out after a timer of a minute or so if no movement detected. It's really confusing though, because the relay seems to require the 'AND' setting for the logic channel for the cupboard LEDs to come on, and the dimmers need the 'MIN' or 'OR' setting for the dimmable halogens to come on. It just doesn't make sense to me.

My question is - isn't there an easier way of creating a composite group, say 'Kitchen/diner', which may comprise 4 or 5 circuits, and having that set to the 'dimmer' function in the toolkit, or use it in a scene to set a level among other groups, without involing the AND/OR logic? It just seems obvious to me, but although I can add a group, I can't seemingly add a 'sub' group to that group.

I don't want to hard wire any of the circuits to achieve the grouping because not only would most exceed the 1A rating of the dimmer units, but I also want to have individual circuit control, depending which DLT (or button on a DLT) that I am using. I also don't want to have to use Scenes for absolutely everything because having to have two for on and off is a waste of a button, and doesn't work 'naturally' to me - i.e. pressing the same button twice should go on/off - or perform the 'dimmer' function - rather than allocating a new scene and wasting a button/memory. I'm also finding I run out of memory on the DLTs to ensure the scenes set the appopriate circuits to the correct levels, hence why needing a few 'virtual' multi-group groups, to help free up the memory too, and make things simpler.

As I say, after 3 weeks of having the system, I am confused that this isn't seemingly simple, and that for a system which cost so much money am startled by its limitations.

Can anyone shed any light and point me in the right direction, without extra splurging on a PAC or touchscreen?!

Thanks for any help,

Pat

 

You need to explore the "Blocks" tab of the GUI for your Input Units.. On a Neo and DLT.. Each key can control any or all of the blocks on an Input Unit. Each block is assigned a Group.. So you can have any key on an Input unit acting as a "Dimmer", for example, for up to 8 groups.

 

Hi,

(1) first of all, forget about using logic in dimmer, relay. It isn't used for such case. Like programing AND gate and OR gate circuits, you need to write down the "logic" you want and work things out. Since the virutal groups affects the real groups, they should be used for using a master switch mainly.

(2) Plan first. Wirte down how many groups you want to control by each switch. Basically, each switch is a eight gang switch, so controlling eight groups or less would be better for each switch...If more, we need to try to work things out. Remember, no virtual group, if you want 'Lounge + Bay', that is two groups: 'Lounge' group and 'Bay' group.

(3) As said, use the "block" feature to control multipe groups with 1 key. If you don't have enough blocks, as usually happen, use scene, combine groups..etc.

(3) If there are groups you always control together, assign them the same group address in the dimmer/relay. For example, if you always control "A + B" together in switches, you just change the real group name of both channels to "A+B". No hard-wiring needed to combine groups. At the end of the day, if you can't get what you want, you may be forced to combine groups anyway.

(4) If you have two switches calling the same scene, you can have its content stalled partially in each of the switch, and assign them the same trigger address and action selector. Pressing a key in switch 1 will trigger the key in switch 2 and the whole scene actions will be called up. That will help the memory limitation.

So, see how many channels you want to control by each switch first.

 

Thanks for the responses. I can see exactly what you mean about how to achieve a similar effect but really these all seem like methods borne of limitations. To use blocks I have to allocate the groups to the keys, which uses up a key, which I might not want to use with that group. The way I have it with logic groups currently, whilst annoyingly intermittant because of the statefulness, is more like what I want.

I think grouping the groups so I can't have individual control over certain circuits is the way forward. After a few weeks living here I have a clearer picture of what goes with what.

I can't help think though that it's a shame that one has to work around such issues and isn't as flexible as someone as new to it as me wants it to be. I'm guessing the biggest issue is the seemingly piddly memory all the units have, so the knock-on effects are all the way down into the toolkit.

I presume with a PAC, in the future I'd be able to create the kind of scenario I'm after?

 

You have spent considerable money however currently your arrangement is like a cake without iceing. If you were to add a touch screen (B&W or Colour) with logic you will unlock the potential of a very powerful arrangement.

You mentioned you are a programmer of some sort so have a look at the PICED software. I can't imagine the C-Bus arrangement in my place without the touch screen and PAC (in my case).

Considering what you have invested this far the little bit extra will be well worth it.

 

Remember you can also use your pc as a temporary pac by using the piced software.

It will disconnect you from the system after some time but its fine for testing logic.

 

filpee - that interests me as I have an old laptop permanently plugged into the system so I can remote desktop to the toolkit around the house. Does it always disconnect automatically or can I emulate the PAC without purchasing one?

 

You can purchase Homegate if you want a permanent "PAC" like setup on your laptop.

 

I know it's bad form to dredge up an old thread, but this one addresses my problem exactly. To clarify one point that PatC mentions, if I want to control 3 groups simultaneously from a single button on my DLT, then I assign each group to a block, assign those blocks to the same key and I'm sorted.

However, on a DLT, that means I end up with 2 "disabled" buttons that I can't use right?

My only other option is to use a logic engine and use the DLT button to control a "virtual" group and react to hat programatically?

Is this correct?

 

The answer to that question is "it depends"...

As wanricky points out, you can control up to 8 groups on a DLT. If the total number of groups you're controlling (excluding Scenes) is 8 or less, then you should be able to use all 4 user keys on both pages to control groups. Assigning 3 groups to 3 individual keys and then assigning a fourth key to control those 3 groups doesn't use up a group, nor does it give you any disabled buttons.

The only time you should come up against an issue is when the total number of groups (excluding scenes) you want to control from a single DLT exceeds 8.

 

Newman, I need a bit more hand-holding I think. You mention "excluding scenes". So let's say I have 4 buttons assigned to scenes. 2 assigned to individual groups 1 & 2.

I want button 7 to control group 3 & 4 together and button 8 to control groups 5,6 & 7 simultaneously. That's 7 groups excluding scenes, so I should be all good to go by assigning appropriate blocks. But my I see a 4 of my blocks (those assigned to scenes) are greyed out.

Am I snookered? Do I need to usa my PAC and some logic and a "virtual" group of some sort?

 

Ah, I see more clearly your problem. Yes, you're snookered, you'll need to control those groups indirectly via another C-Bus unit that uses the logic engine.

The only other alternative would be to use the logic in the output unit. You could configure it so that the first dimmer/relay channel responded to Group 3 and the second dimmer/relay channel responded to either Group 3 or Group 4. This would allow you have independent control of the channel assigned to Group 4 but any time the channel assigned to Group 3 was turned on, so would the channel assigned to Group 4. It's not perfect but if your typical useage always has one group of lights turned on when the other is on it might save you buying a PAC.

 

This is a great tip, thanks. I already have a PAC so it's also an option, but I like the idea of trying logic in the output unit. I'll give it a fiddle - I've always steered away from the logic in the relay/dimmer units as it scares me a bit - never managed to get my head around it. Now I have a compelling reason however....