Difference between L5508D1A and L5508D1AP

I believe my electrician installed x3 L5508D1A's and x2 L5508D1AP's on my CBUS network. I can see the fronts of the units but not the sides or back and both types appear to look identical. Is there anyway I can double check this? (I can see the serial numbers using the toolkit software, 000754790010, 000754790062, 000754790056, 000721140015, 000749420127, but they all come up with the same catalog number).

Many thanks

Tim

 

Power struggles

Tim,

Have a look at the front of the unit. If it say's (from memory) "This unit has an inbuilt power supply" then it is a L5508D1A. If not, then it would be an L508D1AP, without an inbuilt power supply.

Mark

 

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately they all look the same. The only text on the front is CBUS Dimmer and a warning about shorting.

I did notice that when you click on the network in the toolkit software it shows current supply and current consumption, so thought I might be able to work it out from that but both values are coming up as zero.

 

Toolkit cannot determine which ones have Power and which don't. Note the CIS logic that the D1A does have power, whilst D1AP is "powerless"

But it's definitely shown on the blue front of the dimmer, in white writing...

Grrr - Clipsal server is down, I can't link to image !

There are 3 "blocks" that make up the dimmer. On the leftmost one is the 8 buttoms and LEDs, plus power and Cbus LEDs.

On the bottom of the middle and right-most block will be a comment like Mr Mark said "This unit contains a inbuilt Power Supply" or similar. I know for sure that this appears on the ones WITH power supply, and I am pretty sure that the ones without (5508D1AP) have a comment like "This unit does NOT have a power supply"

Sorry, haven't got one here at home, and I can't get an image off Google.

Anybody got a 5508D1AP to confirm ??

JC

 

Here's a pic of a couple of 5504's that have power supplies

http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=261&stc=1&d=1120437805

If using Internet Explorer, make sure to click the box thing at the bottom right corner of the image to expand it to full size.

The text reads : 200mA C-Bus Power Supply Included

 

I wonder whether there is a difference between the versions for the countries (or the age of the part). Mine looks like http://www.cbus-shop.com/popup_image.php?pID_2=0&pID=28 but includes the warning about shorting on the right panel. The middle panel is completely blank. May be this was a flaw which has now been corrected.

Is anyone able to look up the serial numbers anywhere?

Out of interest, what happens if the network is under powered?

 

Hi Tim,

I'm no Cbus expert, but if the network is underpowered, then communications on the Cbus network fail. I believe the Cbus LED indicator on the relay,dimmer,etc will blink/flash instead of stay illuminated to indicate that there is a problem.

There is a little utility on the CIS website i think its

http://www2.clipsal.com/cis/technical/downloads/commissioning_tools

which helps you to determine if you have enough power on your Cbus network. It takes into account the units which have a power supply in them, and also takes into account what each of the other units power requirements are.

Dak

 

It won't work

From memory the specs for C-Bus network voltage are 18 - 36 volts DC. From experience 25 volts or more is what you should be looking for. 30 volts plus means you have healthy supply with some overhead.

C-Bus output units that incorporate a power supply source 200mA of power to the bus. Non powered output units with the "P" at the end of the part number (wonder which collection of brilliant minds came up with that one ?) do not supply power to the bus nor do they draw power from the bus to operate "when they are powered - 240v. Key input units and other straight C-Cus devices draw approx 20mA from the bus to operate. B&W CTouch draws about 40mA and so on. So the math is quite simple. Make sure you have some overhead in your power supply. Nothing worse than loosing a powered output unit or having to power one down for a reason only to find you have dropped below minimum power supply level and the whole C-Bus network stops working.

 

Just wondering whether there is an easy approach I can adopt to work out which ones have power supplies by switching off each unit in turn and watching the CBUS lights? I believe I have 3 units with power supplies and 2 without and I need 2 on to support the load on the network i.e. I could work out which pairs of units will keep the network alive.

My assumption is that a unit that is powered off will still allow the CBUS network to pass through it..... I think this is the case.

The more important one, is there any risk of damage if I underpower the network i.e. if I have one unit on supplying 200mA and my network requires 342mA?

 

Tim, what you describe is a pretty messy way to do it (by trial and error). But it will not harm the network if you under power it.. it will just not work properly. I would not rely on the lights, but it won't help to try it.

I hate to say this, but the easiest way would be to remove the switchboard cover and look at the product codes on the Dimmers... It would be completely dangerous and illegal to do this, so I cannot recommend it. I also cannot recommend that you should look on the flat white lower side of the dimmer, underneath the "2nd ledge" (which means under where the wires connect into it).
- But perhaps you could get a licenced electrician to open the switchboard and take a look ?

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One thing I have always complained about is that CIS insist on putting the product stickers (Part No, Barcode and Manufacture Date) in a place that is almost completely invisible once they are installed. To comply with Australian Standards, all light fittings MUST have a identification and rating label positioned so that it's readable in the normally installed position.

I don't know if that same Standard actually applies to devices like C-Bus, but I can't remember ever seeing (for example) a RCD or a Circuit Breaker where all the information wasn't clearly displayed on the front, where it can be read without disassembling the whole switchboard !

What I do on ALL my jobs is pull off that sticker (or the duplicate one on the end of the carton) and stick it on the blue front part of the dimmer. I do it neatly, and it looks much better than a hand-written sticker that most of us use (and are included in the packing of the products). It has saved me so much time and grief over the years... I can even ask my clients over the phone to tell me what is happening on a certain dimmer, etc !

Discussing this with other installers, they always tell me that this sticker / identification issue annoys the hell out of them, but perhaps CIS have never heard a complaint about it

Is there any technical reason whatsoever why these identification stickers can't be placed in a visible location on the products ?

Sorry for the rant, I've had a bad day

John

 

It is not about countries, I believe. In my memory, products in 2003 or 2004 have no marking on front. Then there is a period that there is a marking, but not always correct. I have had relay with no power, but says power present at front, with "P" on the machine printed model number but no "P" on the label. After all these mess for a short period of time, everything are fine again.

And why the label is not on the front? It is good for me if that is not! They have manufacture day on it!! We are not selling fresh fish, but it looks horriable if there is a 2004 or 2005 made dimmer in the panel assembled now. Overseas CIS may have old stocks, we may have old stocks...as it may take some time to order new hardware.

A simple method of testing the power is to use a PCI with clock present. Connect it alone to one dimmer a time. If there is power, C-Bus LED is on. If no power, no C-Bus LED. You need clock and power to have C-Bus LED on. So, just two units on a network would tell everything. with Burden you can scan it with toolkit and get the serial number. Label them and you have all you want. No need to connect it to the switches....

 

To P or not to P

You can also find the unit details on the silver sticker on the left hand end of the DIN units.
As mentioned previously, earlier DIN units do not have the screen printed info on the front of the device.
If all else fails, grab a Cat 5 lead, chop off one RJ45, plug the other one into the unit, and check for an voltage output with a multimeter.

 

There is a voltmeter built-in to most C-Bus units. You might be able to use this to help find wher eyour power supplies are.

Using the free Diagnistic Utility software, you can find the network voltage at every unit capable of measuring voltage with one click. I would suspect that you could then disconnect your output units one at a time from the network and note if the network voltage drops at all. I think the precision of the voltage measurement will be sufficient for you to track down the units pretty quickly.

Don

 

Good point, wanricky - I agree about the MfgDate and have used many brand new yet "old" products on projects. Same happens when you need a replacement from CIS quickly - they often send a "old" product from the pool stock.

It's a pity that CIS can't seem to get the Unit Type correctly recorded (ie: P or no P) inside the Serial / BarCode - that would make it really easy. Just toggle a load on each unit using Toolkit, then see which unit's Local Override LEDs lit up!

But I still reckon it'd be good to have a sticker or printed model identification and/or serial actually visible on the front of the units. Would save me and most other programmers sticking ugly white handwritten stickers all over the nice shiny blue C-Bus stuff The Mfg Date could be located elsewhere (hidden) and/or also properly incorporated into the Serial (or logged by CIS at time of manufacture).

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wanricky, darrenblake, Don - all your suggestions are good but require an End User to physically open the switchboard, which is not legal ! The reason for Tim's original request is that he's NOT an electrician, but wants to know about his gear. However if he did in fact open the switchboard to get access to the units, then there's no need for complex methods to try and identify the units - he could just read the Part Numbers off the white stickers !

Cheers, John