Dimming compact fluro's

Is there any information available or has anyone sucessfully dimmed compact fluorescent lamps that are marked "dimmable" with a 1 amp dimmer

 

You wont dim a compact fluoro with a standard dimmer.

The fitting may be suitable for dimming in a variety of ways (i.e 0-10v)

Common types of dimmer are also Dali and DSI.

You will need to find out which way the fitting is designed to be dimmed.

 

After many years in the lighting industry, I have never heard of a "dimmable" compact fluoro lamp (with BC or ES base for 240V operation)

There ARE some "switch-dimmable" compact fluoros with ES Base, for example the Osram EL Vario - basically some electronics in the base that allows you to drop output from 100% to 1/2 or 2/3 by flicking the power on & off within a couple of seconds.

Or are you referring to "true" compact fluorescents, where the ballast is remote? If so, it's easy to control them by using a 0-10V Analogue, DSI or DALI ballast and corresponding C-Bus Gateway thingy.

As Nobes said, you need to get more information... in any case, it is almost certainly NOT going to be possible to "dim" them using a normal C-Bus 1A Dimmer.

John

 

Ahh, so http://www.buylighting.com/cart/pur...00B6B0D&Sess=&OSt=0&CNID=017F030381036A026702 is a figment of my imagination?

Odd, since the text says quite clearly:
<pre>
15 Watt R30 Dimmable Compact Fluorescent Flood
# This reflector flood screws into existing sockets. This is a one piece unit which has excellent color and a good dimming capability. This dimmable works on any standard incandescent dimmer. Light Output: 500 Lumens
# Energy Used: 15 Watts
# Rated Life: 6000 Hours
# Volts: 120
# Base: Medium (standard household base)
# Length: 7 Inches
# Type: Compact Fluorescent Dimmable
# Finish: Frost
# Shape: R30
# Color Temp: 2700 Kelvin
# Incandescent Equal: 50 Watts
</pre>

I guess all the others listed are fakes too?
It must be a consipracy, as I've found hundreds of sites claiming to sell them!

 

Well you learn something everyday.....if you wish to use 120v

However these globes are not what I would call (don't shoot me) a commercial compact fluoro, more of a retro fit option.

On the surface it looks like you could use a c-bus dimmer.

 

OK - I'll revise my comments slightly to :

After many years in the Australian lighting industry, I have never heard of a "dimmable" compact fluoro lamp (with BC or ES base for 240V operation) that is available in Australia from a reputable supplier.

OK, perhaps someone is bringing in some obscure product from overseas, but as far as I am aware the main suppliers don't have a dimmable CFL. This is due to a lot of technical issues - if it was THAT easy to dim CFLs then everyone would do it wouldn't they? It is probable that these dimmable products wouldn't comply with Australian / Euro Standards for Power Factor, Harmonics, EMC, etc.

In any case, as Nobes stated these "retrofit lamps" are a severe compromise compared to a properly engineered CFL luminaire using remote ballasts. If you want decent performance from (say) a compact fluoro downlight, you need proper optics and the lamp running "sideways" (not vertical) - suitable, high-performance products are available from the likes of Staff, Zumtobel, Concord, Reggiani, Antares, Targetti, Hoffmeister, Erco etc.

Anyway, to answer the original question posted by Kirk, more info is required about the exact details of the dimmable lamp in question.

Cheers, John

 

As the requirements for energy efficiency in new buildings (BASIX) and the like, get more stringent the market for products like dimmable CFL's will grow. I am aware of large "quality" developments on the go now (apartments costing $1-$2.5Million) there is C-Bus in for lighting, AC control etc and the bedrooms have a CFL fitting. Thats 100 watts (or there abouts) of bright white light, all or nothing. Try that one at 3am when you get up to go to the toot. Sorry they would not get my million dollars.

The smart light manufacturers are waking up to this market. GE and Philips are starting to show signs of CFL's suitable for standard dimming.

For the person who can dig up the best info on quality fittings (CFL dimmable, ES/BC fitting) suitable for the Australian market and C-Bus dimmers for that matter, distributer etc, I will give them a prize, say a CBus Wireless polo shirt and insulated coffee mug... (1 prize only, Australian residents due to postage, no corospondence entered)

 

interesting snippet here:

http://www.gemcell.com.au/articles/70/
GE Dimmable CFL ? Compact, fluoro, dimmable! Wow!

First we got the CFL! It was amazing because it replaced standard incandescent bulbs and used much less energy. But it was much longer than a bulb, and would not fit a lot of standard light fittings. Then out came the compact fluoro lamp. Closer in size to a standard bulb, it offered energy savings and fitted a wider range of light fittings. But you couldn?t dim it.
Now, GE has taken the next step and brought out a compact fluoro lamp that can be dimmed! The GE Dimmable CFL is designed to operate on standard incandescent dimmers and offers wide dimming across a continuous range between 20?100%. Available with either Edison screw or bayonet cap base, the GE Dimmable CFL comes in 13 or 20 watt, in warm white or daylight colours and boasts an average service life of about 8,000 hours (on average). Compare that with a incandescent bulb.
Nice one, GE!

 

Page 2 of this PDF has some dimmable CFLs.. edison screw though I think:

http://www.hagemeyerelectrical.com.au/media/electricalcontractor.pdf

(way out of my depth)

 

Nice one Dunc.

For those interested in the prize mentioned before how about I throw in a Clipsal Integrated Systems USB memory stick.

Now we need solid info on dimming method and therefore C-Bus dimmer compatability.

On your marks, get set......

Not sure if Clipsal staff should qualify for the prize ???

 

Many thanks

Many Thanks to you all, The compact fluro they are proposing is a retro-fit type unit to go in a "Flos" pendant fitting. Having read your replies and speaking to Travis at CIS in Melbourne it appears the only reliable way to do it at this stage would be a lampholder change to a fluro socket and a remote DSI ballast plus DSI dimmer. I reckon they might be better off with 6 ES incandescant lamps on the existing 1 amp dimmer unit. Cheers Kirk

 

Just a though can I get a USB STICK??

Dear all espeically the super hodge .
Once upon a time many moons ago Clipsal new a company called pierlite and pierlite worked with lights maybe a joint effort to reseach and test some of these fittings would proove benefitial as this issue is not going away. I am cuurentlly studying illumination at TAFE and this issue of BASIX is HUGE 40% compact fluro is now stated by most local councils. Sadlly they are allowed to make their own interprutatoin of the BASIX standard as it DOESN'T specifically require yo to meet 40% . We should however look to get all the currentlly available lamos and TEST them on our dimmers.Then if the results are positive maybe even market the fact and use our "energy efficient and control profile" to our advantage.

 

Say Hi to Mr Plummer for me.

 

Contact Euroluce in Melbourne and ask them to ask their Sydney Head Office for a PROPER conversion of that Flos product. Don't let some idiot put a $10 lamp into a $5,000 light fitting and make it a mess !

I used to work at Euroluce, and we did quite a lot of CFL and LED conversions for Flos Products in the Sydney factory. Also, many of the Flos products come in CFL or Halogen versions, so it's possible to convert them using genuine parts. It might not be possible, but it's definitely worth asking them.

I'd use 0-10V rather than DALI... no use wasting money and programming time! Just use a 5101R which includes a 1ch relay and 0-10V analogue output for control of your choice of Analogue Ballast. Make SURE that the ballast is as close as possible to the light... the maximum distance will be 1-2m (maybe less) or you'll generate a heap of RFI /EMC and cause interference to other appliances.

********************

Basix is becoming a disaster... the local councils are definitely making a mess of it. I have been studying this in great detail and there's absolutely NOTHING in Basix that states that you need *ANY* CFLs !

Personally I would threaten the councils concerned and take it to the ombudsman if they start stipulating silly things like 25% or 40% CFLs in a house. Remember these are the same idiots that stopped anyone putting Rainwater Tanks onto their property... then the Gov't had to step in to force them to allow the tanks If anyone hears about Local Councils "re-interpreting" Basix, please drop me a line and I'll stir up some sh#t at a higher Government level. I don't want rumours (got plenty of those), I want written stuff that I can show to the BCA, etc.

Because that is exactly the sort of crap that defeats the whole idea of initiatives like Basix and the new BCA. I guess those same councils will say that since we force you to use 40% of CFLs, then we don't need a rainwater tank, efficient water heating or air-cond or other requirements for Basix?

I have just emailed Basix for clarification on this specific issue. Let's see what THEY have to say about Local Councils reinterpreting and over-ruling the State and National Government requirements !

Sorry for the rave, but stuff like this gets my teeth on edge !

*****************

Perhaps the easiest solution is to go back to the good old batten holder in every room with a CFL in it. After completion, then change the bloody lights to what you really want !

 

Hmmm - I got a ticket from Basix

Dear John C,

Thank you for contacting us.

We have received your enquiry and we will respond to you within one working day.

To help track your enquiry we have generated a reference number. Your ticket code is LTK750984485X. Please use this code in any further communication.

====== Your Inquiry ======
Hello,

[XXXXX] is a company primarily working on energy efficiency upgrades for commercial buildings, but we also consult on domestic premises.

We are hearing stories that Local Councils are stipulating minimum of (say) 25% or 40% of all lights to be Compact Fluorescents in domestic buildings. This is completely against Basix guidelines, which state that Basix does not mandate specific measures to meet the requirements.

Would you please clarify this CFL issue, and also the ability / authority of Local Councils to "over-rule" Basix standards.

Thanks very much, John

************************

PS: Sir Plummer and I have already been discussing this Basix fiasco at great length - and hopefully will soon have some definitive answer about this CFL issue

 

Latch on and stick with it John C. The stories I have heard re council interpretations of BASIX is a real mess.

 

I got one of the GE dimmables from bunnings here in NZ to try on varoius places that have been a no-go for CFLs so far.

They are hopeless

They dont track an incandesent on the same dimmer brightnesswise

They can be dimmed down, but not turned on when dim. They dont light till the dimmer is up at about the 3 oclock position on the rotary dimmer. Then I can dim it down to about the 9oclock position, but if its turned off and on again it wont start.

And the flicker - seems to be a constant 10hz or so flicker except when not at full brightness.

 

richms,

Your info regarding CFL's not re-starting after being dimmed is similar to that of NickD. Looks like there is no quality solution out there at the moment. Something is sure to come along sooner or later

I know DSI and DALI are options but they are expensive especially if you only have a few fittings.

Still keeping an eye out...

 

Bit of techy stuff re: fluoro dimming

Look out - a bit of a rant below, but also some semi-technical info about CFLs

The reason that CFLs (or ANY fluoro lamp) can't be easily / reliably dimmed with a 2-wire system relates to the way that the lamp (the glowing part, not the whole package incl ballast) operates.

To start and dim they need to have their filaments heated continuously, then they are dimmed by having the voltage varied (or wave-chopped / pulse-width modulated) between one end and the other (of the tube). Therefore, you need to separate the filament current (fixed) from the lamp voltage (variable). That is all done automatically inside the 0-10V, DSI or DALI ballast - and it can also be done other ways too.

But if you only have a 2-wire system... then you can't separate the filament heating from the dimming. So, the filament temperature drops when you dim - and that causes havoc with the lamp characteristics. And you'll never get them to start reliably if they are dimmed (and it gets worse as the lamps get older).

So, in order to dim using only 2 wires you need to have THREE inverters inside the ballast. One is accepting a variable power input and outputting a constant filament voltage, the other is actually "running" the tube (at variable power). And you need another to provide the starting pulse too. This IS technically possible to do, but it costs $$ to do it properly ! Helvar used to sell such a system (the FD series) years ago, and it did work very well - but it cost more that a 0-10V system (once the dimmer costs were considered).

The other issue is compliance with PF, EMC and Harmonics rergulations. Start dimming a CFL with a small, cheap electronic ballast and there's all manner of considerations. Anyone who's been involved in EMC Compliance will tell you that it's hard enough to get compliance with fixed output devices, let alone things where the RFI varies when the output varies. Why is it that a proper, legal and FULLY-compliant dimming ballast costs around $40-60 for an OEM? Because there is a HEAP of electronics required to make it comply.

************************

I'm a bit of a "purist", so I hate "half-baked" solutions. Dimming of fluoros is not rocket science, and there are many many ways of doing it properly. It is not particularly expensive (in the overall scheme of things), but it's always going to be more expensive than not dimming them!

But the bottom line is that people have to accept that it costs money. I've been involved in many very successful fluoro dimming systems over the past 20 years, from both perspectives of light fixture supply and from control system implimentation. If they are done properly they work exceptionally well.

Consider this... how much is the client spending on Plasma TVs, distributed audio, alarms, motorised blinds, C-Bus, marble benchtops, tiles, imported toilets and taps, blah blah blah ? Did they buy a cheap no-name TV, or a Panasonic or Sony? ...Yet they want a cheap, crappy, poor performing light fitting that doesn't dim properly?

Why are they using C-Bus rather than cheaper systems ? Because they want something that WORKS, they want the best. So, it is our responsibility to sell them products & systems (to be used with C-Bus) that work reliably and properly - things that the client will be happy with.

Would you put $50 tyres on a Ferrari or Porsche? Yet it's the same as putting a $10 CFL into a $20 light fitting, connected to a $20,000 C-Bus system within a $1million house. Why are we even dicussing the "cheapest" solution? ...we C-Bus-ers should be discussing the BEST solution !

If clients need CFLs for one reason or another, then they should buy proper CFL products. Lights that are made for incandescent lamps and then converted with a screw-in CFL lamp are never going to be very nice, because the product wasn't designed for the CFL lamp and it's unique size and light distribution characteristics.
- For example, downlights with screw-in CFLs are basically crap, and there's little need to dim them because bugger all light comes out anyway !

Anyway, rave and lecture over - I'm looking forward to hearing more about people's experiences of these "dimmable" CFLs