Dimming compact fluro's

I would hope that someone would take the inititive to make a cheap recessed downlight that takes a 4 pin PL bulb and has dimming.

I havent really looked into dali or dsi, the cost of the gear means that its not gonna happen here any time soon, I would be hoping to see a cbus downlight ballast sometime where it has its own individually adressable cbus controlled dimming HF ballast. I thought that one of either dali or dsi was supposed to be able to address each ballast but it seems from the cbus controllers that it doesnt.

Oh, and also the ge tube was that horrid 2700k pink/orange colour that most of the supermarket CFLs are, didnt see any coolwhite or daylight there, and I dont like getting bulbs that are oranger then GLS, they are already bad enough as it is. At least daylight coloured ones are becoming more available now, still the lousy warm up times however.

 

Come on!

Only a fool would invest a lot of effort into designing a dimmable fluorescent downlight today.

LED dimmable solutions are available TODAY in 120V versions, and it won't be long before they sort out the colour quality problems and make a 240V version at a price competitive with a quality fluorescent product.

Don

 

Unfortunately it will be a pretty long time before LEDs meet the performance of fluorescent light sources. Apart from the efficiency (25-35lm/W compared to 80+ lm/W), there is the problem of colour stability (of white LEDs) as Don mentioned... there's a wide variation of whites, and the phosphors deteriorate so the LEDs change colour over life.

Also, LEDs have a significant problem with heat... they are such a small light source but need a heatsink (for anything with decent output) or the life is very short. Then there is the cost, and the fact that LEDs are directional. The best solution is currently to use multiple, low-output units - just like used in traffic lights.

Consider a Luxeon White K2 - you get 75 lumens from 2.5W, which is 30lm/W. The output of a 20W 20V "screw-in" CFL is 1200 lumens, so you'd need 16 of the LEDs to get the same output... and in the process you'd consume 40W plus control gear losses. So, the best LEDs are less than half as efficient as even a crude CFL like the 240V units.

LEDs are great for many things, and have huge practical advantages over other light sources in applications where long-life, small, low output, directional lamps are required. They also turn on and off instantly, and can be dimmed, so they're great as a replacement for incandescent and halogen in many applications. You can even get LED packages in the MR16 (QR-CB51) format, for direct replacement of a 12V 50W dichroic lamp - they work great but at $70+ each it's hard to justify them on most projects.

It's a dream that many manufacturers are striving for - but at the present time LEDs are not really all that viable for "general lighting". Then again, who knows what the future holds !

John

 

The difficulty is that usually cheap = nasty. To do it properly and reliably you need a quality light fixture (to properly harness the light output from the large lamp) and quality electronics to run the lamp. From over 20 years in the lighting industry, nobody (even the chinese) has made a cheap, GOOD CFL downlight ! The best you can hope for is about AU$80-100 per light fitting (non-dimming), but then again you will get something vastly superior in optics to what people usually install in their houses (50W dichroics)

0-10V and Analogue dimming systems are "hard-wired", the ballasts are not separately addressable. With DALI each ballast is addressable. The price of all 3 systems is about the same, but that doesn't mean any one of them is "better"...

All 3 systems are available with various "switch-dim" systems, which basically means they can be used without a control system. We just did an installation using the Osram system, which uses DALI Ballasts but does not use DALI to provide control. Effectively, it uses a single press-button to contol groups of ballasts that are hard-wired together. That allowed us to provide full dimming without the extra cost of C-Bus or even a DALI control system ! That Osram system was also cool in that it also includes an RF receiver and a non-wired control switch - a 2 channel dimming and switching control system for about $200 !

The beauty of DALI is that (shhhh don't tell CIS) you don't NEED C-Bus. It's a simple, stand-alone control system that is much cheaper. What CIS sells is a DALI Gateway, a method of communicating between the 2 control systems (DALI & C-Bus). The C-Bus DALI Gateway allows you to control the DALI ballasts directly, and also allows the ballasts to feed back info about failed lamps etc back to C-Bus.

Many years ago (mid 1990's) Clipsal actually made linear fluorescent ballasts, and then the 5101R was developed to switch and control them. The Clipsal ballasts were used in Pierlite battens, troffers, etc. Unfortunately there was no way that the Clipsal ballast could compete on price with the likes of Tridonic, Osram, VS, etc and it was dropped from the range.

2700K is technically the same colour as GLS, but in reality it's not a very nice colour because it's not a continuous spectrum - there's some colours that are missing in it's output (all fluro lamps are like that). Most Australian people don't want cool light, as they are trying to emulate the effect of the GLS lamp. You've probably found many CFL lamps are available in 5000K or 6500K, especially the ones originating from China (Mirabella, Nelson, et-al).

Warm up times are definitely a consideration - a CFL probably only gives 50% light at start-up, then gradually brightens as the internal temperatures rise. No real way of solving that issue, it's inherent in the design of the fluorescent system.

*******************

Just had the Sales Manager of Osram here, so asked about the CFL Dimming. He said that Osram are not bothering to develop it because they can't easily meet EMC requirements once the lamp starts dimming, and they are not prepared to "botch the system" and release one that passes when at 100% output and isn't tested when dimmed. That said, they could make one (at a cost) but whether anyone would be prepared to pay for it is another thing entirely... it would be easier just to use an existing CFL dimming system.

Cheers, John

 

Hi John,

Did you get an answer back? Very interested as I am about to build a new house and would like to know where this all stands.

Cheers,

Fleetz

 

Yes, I did eventually get a reply.

I have also done some of my own research....So what that means is that IF you cannot meet the Basix requirements (get enough "points") you can choose to include lighting (which is optional, it is NOT MANDATORY).

For example, I am helping on a project at Breakfast Point where the houses have been designed so that they at least :
a) Don't have eaves
b) Don't have rainwater tanks
c) Don't have clothes lines (so, gotta use a dryer)
d) Don't have native plantings
e) Don't have window shading (awnings)
f) Have minimum levels of insulation (no double-glazing)
g) Have Air Conditioning in all rooms
h) Don't have Gas Heating
i) Don't have grey water recycling
j) Have individual, heated swimming pools

So, basically just a typical builder's spec home (although worth $2M each!).

Well, those houses will NOT meet Basix Requirements, and the designers have decided to include Energy Efficient Lighting to try and get enough Basix Points to make the DAs get through council ! What will happen is that every room except the lounge & dining rooms will have a single compact fluoro oyster, the cheapest one they can find. Those fluoros will be enough to get the project over the line, and allow construction. Because these oysters will look awful, the residents will almost certainly have them changed to something else, but that's not the developer's problem.

So if you design an even half-way decent, energy efficient, environmentally responsible house, then you do not need to include lighting in your Basix Assessment. If this is the case, you can use whatever lights that you like, and as many of them as you like.

Also note that Basix is only applicable in New South Wales - there are other schemes in other states and the details vary. I am based in NSW so I have only done research in that region.

I have heard that Queensland is requiring 40% of all room area to be CFL or equivalent. I have not determined whether this is a blanket rule or not.

Also note that I have still yet to hear any "written" document from any council requesting that CFLs be installed. What I have heard is heaps of people (especially architects and project home builders) moaning that they have to use CFLs. But in reality, it's just that their housing designs are crap, and the councils are forcing them to use CFLs to make them comply with the leglislation.

Finally, this same stuff is already in place in Europe and the USA, and caused similar confusion when it first came in there as well. What it's designed to do is make you think about building environmentally responsible housing. It is NOT supposed to be restrictive - so it's a performamce specification (if that makes sense to you).

Cheers, John

 

AND THAT Ashleigh, is exactly what the Basix scheme is all about !

It has absolutely nothing to do with forcing people to use CFLs

 

Does anyone know what the rule is in Queensland? I am about to build up in QLD and don't want to if I can avoid it use CFL light (dont mind gararge, laundry) however C-Bus is going pretty much every where else.

The builder I am thinking od using claim they have a 5 star energy rate on there designs. They claim that the standard requires 3.5 to meet the minimum energy rating to pass council approval.

Can I challenge any council ruling based on a energy house rating?

Who in Queensland control and regulate this?

Thanks,

Fleetz

 

My house was built with a greater than 5 star energy rating and there is not a CFL in the whole place.

The energy rating is made up of the whole house design and not just the lighting. For example you get points for building on a slab and loose points for building on stumps... you gain points for having windows facing the correct way (not west I think) and so on.

You could also specify batten holders for all your lights and let them use CFL's and after you move in just change them to whatever you like. C-Bus dimmers will drive CFL's for the short term, as long as you don't try to dim them... it says so in the book.

Cheers

Rohan

 

Attached file explaining the new Sustainable Living that came into force on 1st March 2006 in Queensland. The document shows all requirements for new residential construction and also states that the Building Certifier will need to sign off that all requirements have been met prior to local government finals under the Building Act. There are several web links at the bottom of the document, and I recently attended a seminar by the mentioned Dr David Mills who spoke on the finer details of the Act. Let me know if you require more info.

Questions from the floor at the seminar asked that why are we pushing towards Energy Efficient Lighting when there is no mention of Air Conditioning units drawing 1 - 10 KW on fully ducted AC systems, which are now the norm in Queensland homes and running daily! There was no satisfactory answer given!

Bill

 

There's quite a big difference between "5 star energy rated" building and these inhibitive "laws" introduced in Queensland.

What rahmer stated is the intent of the Basix requirements in NSW. The concept looks at the house as a whole, and allows you to chosse HOW to make the place comply.

The QLD scheme is unbelievably stupid for exactly the sorts of reasons that Custom stated. I understand why the want to limit the (ever increasing) use of halogen downlights, but doing it that way is very silly.

In this case, the best solution is to buy and install the cheapest nastiest CFL luminaires (chinese circular fluoro oysters) and install in bedrooms etc. Rough out cables for what you want later, but only install the Fluoros. Then after DA/BA is signed off, get electrician back and change them.

OR - simply find a cooperative electrician to make the necessary statements of compliance

 

Thanks Rohan,

Is your experience in Qld? The builder I am drilling down on at the moment is stating 5 star rating which I believe is the minimum required now. What rating did your house get to before you were able to get "status" and not have to use CFL?

Cheers,

Fleetz

 

No, I live in sunny Melbourne.

I didn't have to deal with any of that.

After the design was finished the building company gave it to their 5 star guy who used some super dooper software to calculate the star energy rating.

At no point in time did anybody talk to me about light fittings, in fact the plan only had the placings and not the type. I originally told them to put batten holders in every place and I would change them later, but towards the end I actually bought all the fittings and helped their electrician install them.

The more I talk about my building experience, the more I realise that what I took for granted, like being able to run my own data cable, and fit it off is not usually allowed. I even put extra noggins in the walls to hold wall sconces and TV brackets etc. I just told them up front that was what I wanted to do and they said ok. I guess I would have gone elsewhere otherwise.

Oh, and they had never even heard of C-Bus before I came along.

Cheers

Rohan

 

Cosmoluce are just about to release a new MR16 (dichroic-sized replacement) that is "dimmable" - It's a 240V GU10 base unit, not directly retrofittable with ELV downlights, but can be used in most Halogen GU10 (twist lock lampholder) downlights.

Well...it's not actually "dimmable". It's a switch-dim unit, where you flick the switch off and on again to select what level...

100% = 11W
66% = 8W
33% = 6W
5% = 4W

Very wide 119 degree beam, the 11W CFL produces 110 candelas. In comparison, a 20W Osram IRC 60 degree produces 450 candelas (but has a narrower beam). Divide Candelas by the distance squared to get Lux - so at 2m away the 11W CFL gives (110/2?) 27.5 lux and the 20W IRC 60? gives 112.5 lux, about 4 times as much light from just on double the amount of power (incl electronic transformer losses).

We sell quite a few of these small CFL lamps and fittings. The total energy efficiency is NOT much (if at all) better than IRC halogen, as the efficiency of the units is really bad - a lot of light is wasted bouncing around inside the reflector before it falls out and illuminates your room! So, it total lumens out vs power consumed, they are not as good as they seem... because you need to use a lot more to get the same amount of "usable light".

That said, they are low wattage - I tested some 11W megamans recently and they draw about 11.8W, but note that the Power Factor is only 0.6. But for many areas are perfect because normal ELV downlights are far too bright. Just be aware that a 20W or 35W IRC lamp dimmed to 11 or 12W will last almost forever and I reckon would give a similar amount of real lighting grunt.

Actually, I think I might just do that experiment the next time I have the lux meter and current logger out

 

The future is coming!

CREE now has white LEDs available in Australia through a distributor (Cutter Electronics: www.cutter.com.au ) with stated efficacy of 80 lm/W.

Just have to get the colour temperature right now!

Don

 

CFL's by 2009?

Time to fire up this thread again with the news of 'banning' the standard globe. Damn, I'll have to stock up so I can continue to use my dimmable light fittings that are not downlights (unless the Environmental Minister Mr Turnbull knows something we don't?)

Why is it 'intelligent' people come up with wonderful ideas to reduce our energy use? So, I can build a Tuscan style home with no eaves and a whopping great air-cond to keep me comfortable, but must offset this, with energy efficient bulbs

What about the strobe effect on lathes etc?

What about a CF in my fridge or oven?

Shouldn't we tackle phantom power use (ie standby in DVD's etc).

I can't wait to see those wonderful ornate chandeliers with CF bulbs

 

I agree totally with your comments. Nothing stopping you putting 20Kw three phase AC plant in but not a 50W bulb. Where do these pollies come from!

I did hear him say that energy effiecient halogen down lights will still be permitted. I assume he was referring to the Osram IRC and the like. Need to check this a bit more.

I believe whoever comes out with a dimmable compact flouro aka down light MR-16 or more likely GU-10 style will make an absolute fortune. By dimmable I am talking say 10% - 100% variable. Not the DORS step "dimmable" ones Meggaman do.

My 2 cents.

Fleetz

 

Politicians jumping on the energy conservation band wagon with little or no idea what they are talking about. They are also completely lacking of any undertanding of the ramifications and flow on effect of their stupid statements. Just as well politicians talk lots and act little

 

Yes again I totally agree. I have just emailed The Hon Malcolm Turnbull with my thoughts on the direction he is trying to head us. This is the first time I have written to a polly!

Cheers,

Fleetz