DLT Labelling Issue

I am running Toolkit 1.10.1 and have a 5 button DLT where one of the buttons is a trigger group for a scene set in a second DLT.

As you will see the DLT label is greyed out but correctly displays the text set in the first DLT.

However, once I save this and it pushes the DLT labels to the network the physical unit shows 'Marks Bath'. This is most likely the label associated with a scene previously stored on the unit against this key. However the button correctly activates the 'All Off' scene.

I then went into the old DLT labelling screen (on the Network node) changed the wording for my 'All Off' trigger and level and saved them. The DLT still has not updated.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Mark

 

You can trigger a scene by making the secondary application the 'control trigger ' application, however this is not recommended. The reason the labels will not work is that when there are no scene keys, there is no support for trigger control application label commands. The DLT requires a match to a scene key with the same action selector before a label can be applied. If there are no scene keys but instead normal keys operating in the secondary application - then the labels are not accepted when the secondary application is control trigger. Even if Toolkit could send the label commands to the control enable application, DLT units will throw out the associated text unless it matches a scene key.

Probably the best solution in your case is to create a SCENE button in the second DLT with no group - level pairs, but with the same action selector as the first DLT. There is no need to use a secondary application as scene keys all automatically operate together with the control trigger application. If you want a toggle on / off behaviour for that scene, you can configure a second button as a scene modifier key with the toggle function. Any active scene represented in the DLT will then be toggled with this scene modify key. Doing it this way allows labels to be applied.

If you absolutely must use the secondary application, the only way to label it is to configure the key with a dummy group in the primary application first, assign the label, then change the key to your secondary application and don't try and change the label.

 

Don't mean to dredge up an old thread, but I'm having a similar issue and Don, you made my head spin, so I'm hoping you'll indulge me and try and explain that again slowly.

I have a scene in a PAC (mostly becasue I can set more than 10 groups there without splitting them across multiple input units).

I want to trigger that scene in the PAC from a DLT and be able to set the label correctly.

Right now I'm doing what MHeaton did, setting the secondary application to Trigger Control, setting the button to "S", selecting my PAC control group, setting "Trigger 1" as the Function and selecing my scene action selector in the "Edit details" dialog. It works but my label is incorrect.

My DLT already has some other simple scenes defined in it, and as far as I know, it I want one key to trigger an action selector of another trigger group, then ALL keys on that unit have to act on the same trigger group (which means I'd need to move all the scenes to the PAC, correct?).

 

All DLT's allow you to have a single Scene of up to 40 groups stored in a single unit.

I take it this means that you want to change the label when the Scene is set, and again when the Scene is broken?

You cannot change the label for a key assigned to the Secondary Application of Trigger Control.

Correct, a DLT can only use a single Trigger Group when using the in-built scene capabilities.

If your Scene is stored in a PAC then the easiest thing may be to put the DLT key on a lighting application and trigger the Scene from there. This will enable you change the label for the key.

For a bit of extra insurance against a mistake, you can create a new lighting application, e.g. "Lighting Scene Triggers" and make this the Secondary Application for the DLT. Then, assign the key to a new Group within this application. The PAC can then transmit labels on this group.

 

Thanks Newman. I think the penny just dropped for me with Tigger Groups/Action Selectors. For my small home, I only really need one Trigger Group, and I can assign all my units to control scenes in that Trigger Group. The scenes can he "hosted" on various units (PAC, DLT, etc) and triggered from anywhere.

Previously I'd made the mistake of assuming each unit would have its own Trigger Group, but unless I'm going to have more than 255 different scenes that need triggering, I'm perfectly fine with a single trigger group for the house.

Is this sound logic? Or have I taken another sip from the stupid stream again?

 

You've got it mostly right now.

What you need to keep in mind is that all scenes with the same Trigger Group will be mutually exclusive; only one scene can be active at a time. If for example, you had a number of scenes controlling lighting in a lounge / dining area, you would use one trigger group so that when you triggered the scene, you would force the new scene to be active. If you required a different area to also use scenes, for example an entertaining area, you would need to have two different trigger groups; one for each area, so that activating a scene for tha entertainment area will not affect the active scene in the lounge / dining area. In summary; you require one trigger group for each area using scenes.
As key units controlling an area are usually physically located within that the area, it should be no problem living with the constraint that key units (DLT, Saturn, etc.) can have only one trigger group assigned per unit.

I'll try and improve my earlier explanation of DLT labels while I'm at it here as well:

A DLT can accept labelling commands in either the Primary lighting Application (P), Secondary Application (S), or in the Control Trigger Application. The primary application is configurable in Toolkit, but the control trigger application is predefined in all units that can deal with scenes, and can not be changed.

Labelling messages Broadcast in the Primary lighting Application will be received by all DLT units operating in that application, and matched against all keys in the unit that work with the same groups. Labels are then assigned to matching keys.

Labelling messages broadcast in the Control Trigger Application are received by all DLT units, and matched against the Trigger Group, and if a match is found, they are also matched against the keys that work with any matching Action Selectors. Labels are assigned to the matching keys.

Labelling messages broadcast in the Secondary Application (S), providing that that application is NOT the same as the Primary Application or the Control Trigger application, will be received by all DLT units operating in that application, and matched against all keys in the unit that work with the same groups. Labels are then assigned to matching keys.

As Newman pointed out, the DLT has capacity to handle 40 group-level pairs, and these are available for all scenes in the unit in any combination, so if you have two scenes and only use a few group-level pairs in the first scene, you can use all that are left in the second scene. If you need more than 40 group-level pairs for all your scenes, then you would need to store some group-level pairs in another unit. A good way to do this is to configure an 'empty' scene... one that has an action selector, but no group-level pairs. The group-level pairs can be stored in any other scene capable unit - a PAC, a C-Touch, or even another DLT, NEO or Saturn unit.

A simplified example:
Two DLT units (DLT1 and DLT2) and one NEO.
All units have the same trigger group 01
A scene on the top key that sets group 10 to level 255, group 20 to 128 and group 30 to 40 could be configured in DLT1, and given action selector 02.
The top key of DLT 2 can be configured also as a scene with action selector 02 but with no groups controlled, and
key 1 of the NEO also configured as a scene with action selector 02, also with no groups controlled.

Now pressing the top key of either DLT or key 1 of the NEO will cause the scene to be broadcast.

The same scene could also be stored differently.
A scene on the top key that sets group 10 to level 255 could be configured in DLT1, and given action selector 02.
The top key of DLT 2 can be configured also as a scene with action selector 02, setting group 20 to 128, and
key 1 of the NEO also configured as a scene with action selector 02 and setting group 30 to 40.

Pressing the top key of either DLT or key 1 of the NEO will cause the scene to be broadcast, just the same as before, but each unit will contribute its part of the scene.

The only time it is justified to put a key in the secondary application to trigger a scene, is if you want to implement a 'scene toggle' function - one that uses only one key to trigger alternate scenes - usually a scene and a scene OFF. There are plenty of threads on this topic in the forums.

 

I think you can run a complete course just around scenes and triggers

Ingo

 

Don, thanks for taking the time and effort to explain in more detail. I fully understand. It does (as was inevitable I guess) rasie two more questions though.

1. What if I do as you say, and allocate Trigger Groups to areas at home, and the input units in those areas will be allocated to the same Trigger Group for the areas they are in. Now I want to trigger one of those scenes from a different input unit that's part of a different Trigger Group?

e.g. Most of the buttons on my Kitchen DLT control Kitchen scenes and uses a Kitchen Trigger Group, the same with the Lounge, in a Lounge Trigger Group setting Lounge-related scenes. However, I now want an input unit in the lounge to trigger a scene in the kitchen (and the lounge at the same time), say to set most kitchen groups to level 0 when it's movie time). Do I need to create a new scene & action selector in my Lounge Trigger Group - duplicating one of my scenes alredy set up in the Kitchen Trigger Group?

2. In my bedroom, I have a number of Groups that I'd like to control from a single key (multiple groups due to the 1A limit per dimmer channel, but no point having dedicated keys assigned to each group). I can create a scene with all groups set to 255 and another with them all set to 0, but that's 2 keys. Can I do this with one key, and is the "secondary application" the recommended way or this there an alternative? (Oh, and this is on a DLT and I'm using all 8 keys for something, so I have no "virtual" keys available to me).

 

1) Yes, you can do as you suggest and include the kitchen groups in your big kitchen + lounge scene. This will work fine. The mutually exclusive rule for scenes is intended so that the active scenes can be correctly indicated on the units.

2) If you always use the groups together as one, then I suggest you reconfigure the output units so that all the outputs are given the same group address. This is allowed in outputs and will solve your problem without requiring extra capacity in the key units. This way, use a normal on/off or dimmer key to control the group.