Do you use PC_GIM (General Input Unit)?

Success but short lived ...

Given all the problems that I have had with the GIU, my tolerance to get it working is quite low. Hence, when I first used Toolkit 1.1.6 to program it and it crashed Toolkit, I couldn't be bothered any further. I've just tried again and I made some progress, all be it short lived.

If you tick the "Show current Level" and then change to a different channel you can get the attached error messages. This isn't highly repeatable, it appears to be associated with some sorted of timed function or broadcast maybe? That is, you need to click the "Show current level", then change channel, click the "Show current level",etc and eventually on the change of channel the error will occurr.

I've experienced this several times and captured it a few times as per the attached screens. The first error message allows you to hit cancel and continue, the second and third locked up toolkit and can only be closed through task manager.

The success I had was that I was able to view 0-1VDC inputs for the first time since getting the GIU. This was short lived though. After changing the multiplier I clicked apply in order to save changes and I chose to save to the the pyshical unit only. The inputs now only read '0' for the "current level". I've tried several things, i.e. shut down, re-downloading, but nothing has resurrected the unit. I've checked the inputs and they are still working (0.1 VDC and 0.8VDC) So I am back to where I started again ....

As an aside, whilst checking the unit, the 24VDC output was actually 35VDC. This will soon kill my instrument so is there a trim pot to lower the voltage? The input voltage to the GIU is 25VAC.

Regards, CC&C.

 

Error Messages #1, #2, #3

 

Update on "Current Level" reads '0'.

I incorrectly diagnosed what I was experiencing in my previous post.

When choosing a 0-1VDC the result is always zero. ie the software is wrongly scaling the input. If you choose 0-5VDC, it scales the input as if it is a 0-1VDC input. I've previously reported this for both V2 and Toolkit via Tech Support and this forum. I hope someone will actually have a look at it.
Regards, CC&C.

 

Sorry ...

The 24VDC output is an unregulated, rectified and filtered output of the AC input and will consequently be approx.1.4 x the input voltage. No adjustment is available.

 

I've just tried V2 (2.7.1) and Toolkit (1.1.6) to program a GIU on the 1V range (channel 1) with no problems. Refer to the screen capture attached and note if there any differences.

Even though the unit is displaying a result of zero, is it actually working (i.e. switching at event thresholds)?

Thank you for your patience.

 

The Electrical Specification for the 5504GI for the 24Vdc (nominal) Output Voltage is quoted as 24VDC +/-10%. 35VDC is almost +50%! I would suggest CIS change their spec so that people can make an informed choice as to whether it is safe to use it or not. For now, I'll have to run my sensor on it while I get a regulated 24VDC supply. I did wonder why it was making a buzzing noise ....

 

Why don't you just regulate the output that you have, I would think that would be the easiest solution.

 

I trust that you haven't done what I did, I initially changed the input from 0-5volts to 0-1 Volts on the Network GUI but failed to write it to the GIU. Thus I thought it was working. I can get the same screen as yours but it isn't necessarily what is in the GIU. [Refer attached screens] In the case shown, the GIU has 0-5volts as the Input Type and is currently reading a value (refer next post).

I haven't got as far as working with threshold levels yet. I can obviously connect and disconnect the sensors and see what happens, if I get time I'll have a go at it. I'll report back only if it does work.

 

Just to clarify a couple of things, there are two issues:
1) There is an "unexpected error" that is sometimes generated when you select "Show current level" and then change channels tabs. I've just tried to gather some more data on it. I've only been able to do it again once and that was when I was connected to the database rather than the Network.

2) The above issue doesn't appear related to the second issue which is of 0-1VDC and 0-5VDC inputs. Bear with me as I'll repeat some of the previous post. In order to simplfy things I have setup all the channels the same as per setup3.jpg with 0-5VDC as the input type. I've measured my input (a 0-1VDC temperature sensor) and it is 0.092 VDC. This corresponds well to the 'current level' of '94' (I'm using a multiplier of 3.91257 to make the comparison simple). For me (I may have something wrong here), this confirms that the 0-5VDC input type appears to scaling the input as if it is a 0-1VDC. (0.092VDC/1VDC x 255 x 3.91257 = 92) If it was scaling it as a 0-5VDC input, my measured input of 0.092 should be showing a current level of '18'. (0.092VDC/5VDC x 255 x 3.91257 = 18) I have a second input on channel 3, 0.886 VDC, set as 0-5VDC Input, multiplier 3.91257, it displays current level of '878' (close enough).

If I change the input to 0-1VDC and save it to the GIU, the current level displays '0' (Setup4.jpg). If I change it back to 0-5VDC and save it, I get the same as before.

I forgot to mention in my previous post and applicable to this post is that the Firmware for my GIU is 4.2.00.

Thanks for having a look at this, I realise that there aren't many people using this product but I trust you're as interested in getting this working as me.
Regards, CC&C.

 

Good idea, I probably would have came to the same conclusion once I'd thought about it a bit more, thanks for the suggestion. Cheers, CC&C.

 

Hi CC&C,

It appears that the role of the multiplier is not explained well enough, so I'll give it another go here.

When show current level is selected, the GIU returns raw data values (0..255) only. The software then manipulates it to present to the user more meaningful values. With regards to the multiplier, it multiplies this value to give you the vertical scale on the event graph. So for the example you have above, if the input range is 0-1VDC and the multiplier is 3.91257, you will have a vertical scale of 0..1000. If you change the range to 0-5VDC and leave the multiplier at 3.91257, you will still have a vertical scale of 0..1000 - no change and current levels will appear to be 5 times higher. You need to set the multiplier to 5 x 3.91257 (or 19.60785) if you need to see "real" values. The GUI is displaying the correct information based on the settings. The multiplier and offset are only there to try to present the information in a user friendly way and you are free to use any available values to present information in a more meaningful way. By the way, your channel 3 reading appears to be incorrect given the above criteria.

As for your second point, I haven't been able to duplicate it , I can only assume it is something in the GUI. I'll ask Daniel to check it out. When I tried it, it behaved exactly as I would expect it to (0-5VDC, changed to 0-1VDC resulted in the current level increasing approx. 5 times) (Toolkit 1.1.6). I tried this a few times with consistent results (it's slow isn't it? ), so I'm not sure what is the problem. If you have any more information it would help.

Sorry about the mis-leading information in the doco regarding the 24VDC out. It has been noted and should be changed to 24VDC +50/-10%.

Best Regards
RatDeSewer

 

GIU error

Daniel, attached is a screen dump of the fault that occurs when I try to save to the network using 1.1.6. Hope it helps

 

smartin, just something to check as I came across this as a problem once before, you need to use the C-Bus default applications numbers for your events. For now, try using "unused". Note: there are 8 events per channel so you would need to check 32 events in total. Regards, CC&C.

 

RatDeSewer, Unfortunately your reply doesn't make sense to me. It also doesn't explain why I always get '0' as the current level whenever I choose the 0-1VDC input. I don't have access to my GIU until I get home, but I will create another example to explain further. Regards CC&C.

 

In order to simpify things further I have setup my channels with a multiplier of 1. That way, as you have pointed out, I will be seeing exactly what the GIU is reporting. (i.e. a value between 0 .. 255). If we don't agree on this then there is where we differ.

As per the attached graphic, the reading I am getting is 219. Because it is a 0-5VDC input, I should be able to go to the terminals of channel 3 on the GIU and the measured voltage should be has (219/255 x 5VDC) = 4.29V. [If this is not the case please tell me what the value should be] When I measure the voltage it is in fact 0.85VDC. Which as I pointed out corresponds as if it the input is being scaled as a 0-1VDC input, i.e. (219/255 x 1VDC) = 0.86VDC.

The same applies to my channel 1. I have a current reading of '29' and the input is selected as 0-5VDC, if I got to the terminals on channel 1 on the GIU and measure the voltage, it should be (29/255 x 5VDC) = 0.57 VDC. My measured voltage is in fact 0.12VDC. Again this corresponds as if the input is being scacled as a 0-1VDC input i.e. (29/255 x 1VDC) = 0.11VDC

Can you let me know if the firmware of the GIU that you are doing your tests on is different from mine (i.e. mine is 4.2.00)

To further highlight my point, I have setup channel 3 as 0-10VDC. It displays a current value of 29 and this suggests that if I go to my terminals I should be able to measure (29/255 x 10VDC) = 1.1VDC (this is a bit above the measured value of 0.86VDC, but with only 8 bit resolution this is to be expected.) Hence the 10VDC input is operating correctly.

Again, if I choose 0-20VDC it displays a value of 10, thus the terminal voltage should be (10/255 x 20VDC = 0.78VDC) Measured value 0.86VDC, again close enough, so 0-20VDC is operating correctly.

As before, whenever I select 0-1VDC as the input, the input only ever reads '0'. So clearly there is something wrong with unit or the software ...

Regards, CC&C.

 

Hello CC&C,

I'm trying to think out aloud your problem - so here it goes:

This is correct.

Your calculations are correct. The result can mean one of two things
a. The GIU is not being programmed correctly by the software; or
b. There is a hardware fault in the GIU. For the 0-5V range the internal gain is set to 1 with no dividers enabled. For 0-1V the gain is set to 10 with a divide by 2 => both settings would need to be incorrect to get a 0-1V range - not likely to fail in 2 different areas (Software starting to look suspicious).

All channels have a common pga (programmable gain amp) and dividers - input goes through a mux. From a hardware perspective, if one channel has problems with gain setting, then all will. If it is a software issue, then the software would need to screw up for both channels (possible if common code used - don't know what's in s/w) => not conclusive.

I have the same revision firmware.

0.86V on 0-10V range should measure 21 or 22 => is GIU in need of calibration? PGA is set to 1 and divider to 2, seems to be giving a result that is close.

This seems as it should be. PGA set to 1, divider to 4. Implies that the software is setting the correct settings.

The 5, 10 and 20 volt ranges have pga = 1, only dividers change. The 1V range has pga set to 10, with divider set to 2 (same divider as 10V).

The unit that I have on my desk programmes and functions correctly, some of the ranges on yours function correctly => software is probably okay, so it appears you may have a fault in the hardware.

Could you please contact Clipsal tech support and they can arrange to have the unit checked out or replaced.

Best regards

RatDeSewer

 

Thanks

RatDeSewer,

Thanks very much for your help. It's good to be finally getting somewhere after 8 months of mucking around with this thing. From my diagnosis, I thought it was a simple software bug. I will contact Tech support and send off the unit.

While I've got your attention,
1) Would it be possible to add 'knots' to the units box.
2) I know there wouldn't be many sensors that would need this, however, can make the offset accept negative numbers. (i.e. A 0-1VDC temperature sensor might be scaled -10C to +50C.)
3) Can you add a 'calibration factor' which adjusts the raw value from the A/D as a way of providing calibration. i.e. adds or subtracts the specified number from the 0 ... 255 value.

Thanks again, CC&C.

 

Hi CC&C,

This is a software issue. I'll ask Daniel to have a look - should be simple.

The firmware should already be able to cope with this (uses floats here), so it appears to be a software issue again - more for Daniel.

Not sure why you need this, but a calibration factor is already applied (done in factory) that corrects for zero input and 90% input errors. Making this visible is not a good idea, as you can quite easily render your GIU useless if not done properly with the correct references.

Cheers
RatDeSewer