Few things

Im still toying with the idea of putting cbus in while I am remodeling downstairs of the house budget permitting.

If I dont immediatly then I will just be putting the pink cable in along side some RWB back to a place where I will in the future the dimmers will be located.

The issue I am having is the 2 amp limit, I can only think of 2 rooms where the groups of lights will come in under 2 amps (the downlights will if I put energy savers in, but that eliminated dimming which is a must have).

So what solutions are there that will allow me to run more? Most dimming channels I will have will be in the 3-5 amp range.

I cant seem to find any details about how far I can push learning mode to get functionality, for now with budgeting being tight (can spring for the dimmers and a few switches) - wont have a PC interface immediatly want to know exactly what I can do with learn mode vs proper programming.

Is there any downside to buying 1 4 channel with powersupply and one without rather then a single 8 channel unit? Seems to cost about the same but will get me double the capacity per channel (2 vs 1)

Also can someone tell me how cbussales.com's prices compare to the NZ wholesalers "best discount" prices.

 

You can have two (or more) channels assigned to the same group, and when you press the on button both will work togther, thus allowing you to simultaneously dim a set of lights that exceed the nominal current rating of the output.

You must be dimming a lot of lights toghether for 3-5 amps, thats 12 60W globes you are dimming at 3 amp (give or take a little), are you sure you did your maths correctly.

mick

 

If you look in the Trade Price Guide you will see that there are C-Bus dimmers available in capacities up to 20A per channel. The difference is that once you exceed 2A the dimmers are no longer in the DIN format and require different mounting arrangements.

With Learn Mode you can program on/off switches, dimmer switches, timers and Scenes (depending upon the type of switches you have installed).

Link to the Quick Start Guide which covers basic programming here: http://www3.clipsal.com/cis/pdf_files/0205CBus2userguide.pdf
You can find out how to program a Scene in Learn Mode by checking out the DLT user guide here: http://www3.clipsal.com/cis/pdf_files/CBusASeriesDLTRange-UsersGuide.pdf
Note that you can only program Scenes in Neo, Ulti Saturn, Reflection, DLT and Multisensor switches, not the 2000 series.

You can also check out the installation instructions for product before you purchase them here: http://www3.clipsal.com/cis/lit_installinstructions_C-Bus2.php3

 

The cieling lights are 100w gls downlights - I dont like halogens for room lighting as all you seem to get is glare and 3 foot circles of light on the floor, and if you swap to the 60o bulbs you get stuff alltrain light out of them.

In the lounge there are 3 rows of 4 of them - thats 1200 watts just there in the cieling, there are 7 wall lights at 75 a piece.

Dining room has 2 rows of 4 so thats 800 watts, kitchen is 7 of them.

All up there is about 3.5 kw of lighting downstairs that I am wanting to get on it initially, as we are changing the entryway to the rooms it would be a lot of RWB and intermediate mechs I would have to buy in anycase so now it the time to change.

I will look into the training course when I get a bit of spare money to throw at it, right now I just want to get it in and working, sounds like learn mode will do the trick without the PC interface as I just want to get the plates doing on/off and most importantly dimming.

 

EEEEK - a lighting designer is absolutely cringing here !

First up I must say that using the lowest efficiency light source is not environmentally responsible. What you need to investigate is QUALITY LV lamps in quality downlight fixtures. You will acheive good beam spread, glare control and light levels with those. A 50W Osram IRC lamp will provide far far more light than ANY 100W GLS downlight, and you should not get any "pooling" if the downlights are laid out properly.

The glare you are noticing is because the fixtures most people use are the cheapest ones that create glare. If glare is objectionable to you, then steer away from any downlights where the globe is not recessed in a baffle or similar

But the big question is - Why are you trying to evenly illuminate the room with 1200W worth of lamps? Surely you don't want everyroom on one switch, lit up like a sports hall or prison dormatory?

If you want to have everything lit up brightly and evenly, then incandescent downlights are the wrong choice anyway, what you need is fluorescent strips (sorry, just joking).

The key to good lighting design is to separate tasks from backgrounds, and provide contrast which generates visual interest. If you light the whole space in one circuit, it will simply look BLAND!

Furthermore, we have a clever "illumination capturing device" named the human eye. This device automatically adjusts it's iris to suit the ambient lighting conditions. Therefore, doubling the light level doesn't make the room look brighter.... it will only look brighter if you have a point of reference (a darker area in the space). So, an evenly lit space will almost always look "under-lit" !

Lighting requires a combination of light sources to suit the application - wall lights and diffuse sources (oysters and pendants) are often a better bet for living areas and bedrooms. Downlights do just that (light down) and are designed for task lighting, so they are NOT the best choice if you want everything completely evenly lit.

So, a good lighting designer says "what will you do in here", then find the best light source / fixture for that task. If there are multiple tasks (almost every room) then there needs to be multiple light sources / schemes.

Even in our kid's bedrooms we have 3 separate circuits... general, task and wardrobe. We choose the light we need to suit the task, and it's very uncommon to have all 3 circuits on at once. Our dining room has 4, the kitchen has 3, our lounge will have at least FIVE different circuits so we can mix the lighting to suit what we are doing.

Furthermore, what's the use of a lighting control system, when all you need is a big "on-off" switch... the key is the ability to create scenes to suit what you are doing. For example, "Watching TV" might have wall lights at 20%, front downlights at 80%, rear downlights at 30% etc

I seriously suggest that you get to a few good (upmarket) lighting shops and get some design assistance. Take your plans and visit a few of them to get ideas. Walk away *VERY FAST* from anyone that gives you solutions based on uniform arrays of downlights in every room...

Sorry for the rave - but I hope you read behind the way I'm saying it and re-evauate what you are doing before it's too late. You have the opportunity to make a good job of it, without spending more money (probably less, especially in ongoing electricity costs)...

Cheers, John

 

Absolutely!

You know, I read that and thought "seems a lot", then I thought about it.
We have 5 lighting circuits in each bedroom. The lounge has 7, the kitchen has (eek!) 9 if you include the pantry, hell, even my workshop has 3, so yes, go overboard. It's easy to turn on multiple circuits at once, but it's impossible to turn on half of a circuit!

Oh, and *most* of our lighting are the Megaman 9W CFL lamps. They produce quite enough light for most purposes, they don't generate anywhere NEAR the heat (which not only burns your energy bill, but also burns again with the aircon to get rid of it!), but they also have quite a low angle of radiation and produce a very even light within the area being used. (We went for the warm white, 2700K and not the cool white, as it doesn't look as harsh). Lights which are on for short-duration or specific tasklights are 240V halogen (like reading lights in the bedrooms, or feature lights in the lounge, or over work areas in the kitchen). This mix works really well for us.

Putting in the cable now, hell, even if you hardwire all the lights into less dimmer/relay modules, will be infinitely less pain than doing it later. And I agree with you on the running costs. Remember, every KW you have in lighting load is another KW you have to get rid of with the aircon.
(And it's at least ten times more important when you're not grid-connected and can't just count on unlimited power being there).

 

Well initially the room was lit with 2 batten holders, which was fine with 200 watt bulbs in each, most likely the best lighting, and outperfroming the 500 watt uplighters by a long way, then "someone" wanted halogens all the way thru the place because all the up market houses have those.

The problem with those was all the light went down and the walls had large dark patches at the top because no light went sideways, they tried to sell us some swiveling ones to aim at the walls but I would have none of that. So we put in some R80 ones where the bulb hangs out of the cieling so there is a lot going sideways, but they looked ugly sticking out of the cieling so then we swapped the R80s out for the GLS ones with the reflectors in them, These have a decent amount of light coming out sideways but nothing sticking out of the cieling to look ugly when the lights are off. This is what we are all happy with here (except the heat from them) - The walls have no dark spots at the top of them and the room is lit nice and evenly. When ever I am in a place with designed lighting I always feel that its too dim and dark with parts of the place unlit. We are all happy with the lighting now, its just the control of it we want sorted. Im thinking of getting rid of the wall lights now, they were origionally picture lights which I dont like. I may try some uplighters there but they are spaced erratically and I dont feel like replastering to relocate them at the moment.

So yeah, a big on/off/dim is really what we need for the various rooms. I may take the dining and lounge into 2 banks each to get the loading down somewhat on the dimmers.

 

Hi richms,

"Truly" upmarket houses don't use LV Halogens in a uniform array lighting straight down... I am guessing you are referring to those "upmarket project homes" that builders pretend are architect designed, yet contain the lowest cost items that they can possibly get away with

The human eye detects the "brightness" of spaces based on the vertical illumination, not the horizontal. That is because the normal line of sight is straight ahead, not down. Bad lighting design works to create a even light level at table or floor height (the "working plane") but completely disregards the walls and vertical surfaces that we perceive brightness from. And that is exactly what you just described.

So, poorly lit verticals means a perception of low light levels - even if there is 1000 lux on the horizontals, if the walls, ceilings, etc are darker then the room will look badly lit. In many cases, the colours are light enough that a good proportion of the downlighting get reflected up onto upper walls and ceiling, so the overall effect (whilst inefficient) is OK. But if the furnishings and floor are dark, well...

The usual solution is to have one lighting "scheme" lighting the walls, and one lighting the tasks. Usually the walls are lit by those tilting LV's with 60 degree lamps (often with matt glass in front to soften the scalloping) and then a small number of downlights in the room are used to illuminate tasks. The wall washing produces the perception of brightness in the space, and the downlights provide the "actual light" if and when required. A mixture of those (using separate switches and scenes in the control system) is used to balance the requirements for different tasks within the room.

That sounds like VERY BADLY designed lighting to me. Keep in mind that good lighting is an art, not something that can be learnt in a few weeks work experience at the local hardware shop. One of the problems of our (lighting) industry is that there are people out there doing "lighting design" who have no training or real world experience. And that is what you get from 99% of lighting shops unfortunately - and it would be very rare for even a good builder and electrician to have even 1/2 a clue on how to do the lighting job properly !

The key is in the placement of the lights, not the quantity of them within a space. To light the walls, you need them close (to reduce the wattage required) and aiming at the walls (to eliminate glare). Often excellent results can be acheived with 20W lamps around the perimeter, which can save a fortune in ongoing electricity costs.

Wiring separate circuits provide you with flexibility later. It costs basically NOTHING to wire in a number of banks now, even if you connect the actives together onto one big switch initially. Same with Cbus control - you can use separate dimmers and set them to all dim up and down together by using the same Group Address, so that it acts like one big dimmer. Or you can use different Groups and use Scenes to set the levels... that is the advantage of splitting it up, you can do whatever you need later on. For example you can watch TV in your lounge room WITHOUT having to have 12 x 100W downlights blazing away around you, when all you need is 1 downlight overhead so you can read the program guide and find your beer !

In the ultimate installation, every downlight or 2 would be separately circuited, and then the "switching arrangements" done in hardware or software (Cbus) later once the room is in use. If you have access to the ceiling cavity, then I guess you can always change it later. But if you have made up your mind and are happy with your design results - then feel free to ignore any advice we might give you here

Each to there own - but it sounds to me that you are not interested in advice from experienced members of this board, and have already made up your mind. Good luck in the future with the lack of flexibility, ongoing electricity costs (least inefficient light source available), poor lamp life (1000hrs) and frustration of continual replacement lamps.

Consider that your 12 x 100W GLS downlights use 1.2kW, so for every hour they're going to cost you about 12c to run. Average 5 hrs per night, 365 days per year is $219 PER YEAR just to light one room of your house Your average lamp life will be 1000hrs, which equates to 28 weeks, so allow to change all those bulbs twice yearly as well. But by splitting up the loads, then you won't NEED to have all those lights on together if you don't need them...

I also still have some concerns as to why you even need a lighting control system like C-bus. An "all on in one switch" room lighting scheme really only needs a commercial dimmer module like the Clipsal 32/1000 or 32/2400 which would be far cheaper way to acheive exactly the same nett result.

Cheers, John

 

Great posts John!

 

While it is costly to run the lights, the big plan is that we will either have moved on to another place (taking the cbus gear with me) or else have done some serious rebuild here in about 4 years, so any lighting design would be wasted even tho the fittings would be able to be re-used, and I am hoping that there is a better selection of efficiant fittings available when we do actually get the place re-done where we will be able to put some effort into the design. (Im hoping that some lower cost PLC with electronic ballasts instead of the magnetic junk that seems to be all there is now)

At the moment any lighting on the wall from halogens just shows how terrible the plastering on it is, and thats not something I will be fixng anytime soon. Theres no features in the room that are worthy of lighting and IMHO thats all that little halogens are good for.

Putting in the C-Bus is more of a because I can thing, and to have a play before I put it in for all the outside poolside and garden lights and bedrooms upstairs, so its not a total waste even if I do just use it for off/on/dim initially, I also will be putting the hallway and bathroom on it initially so I will be able to use motion sensors etc which will replace the ones that are sitting in the flushboxes in the hallway which false trigger all the time.

Ive now recalled that when we put in the halogens, I had to run loads of twin and earth back to a couple of Jboxes up in the roof since the terminals in the transformers were less then generous and were not able to fit 2 pieces of cable in them, so at the moment changing the banks of them about isnt an issue, I will just pull a couple more pieces of twin and earth from the place the dimmers are going (yet to be determined - something else I need to sort out)

I've decded that downlamping to 60 watters will be fine, thats all thats in them at my mums place and its more then enough, the only reason that they have 100 watts in them is thats what came with the fittings, and they are dying now that they have being in about a year.