Fun with PIRs

Hello all. After getting the initial, basic "here-and-now" operation of the various PIRs around the place done, and time for everyone to settle in to the house, we now know more about what we want things to do and are back for the "fine tuning". Some of the tricks we want PIRs to do are proving elusive!

1. I have an outside PIR (SENPIRSS?) - which looks out over part of the driveway. During the day, I use it as a visitor announcer - it simply flashes one of the downlights in a prominent position to attract our attention. This works fine. The PIR has that same light group in its DISABLE input, so when we have the light turned on manually, the PIR doesn't turn it off This also works fine. (There is a trap for the unwary here though - when I sent the new config to the PIR, it refused to operate at all - until I manually turned on and then off again, the light that controls the disable. Perhaps it hadn't "learned" the state and was defaulting to disabled?)
In Toolkit, the PIR shows as having firmware version 1.2.67, and I've set up so that the "Day-time Movement (LI)" operates that light only, and the "Night-time Movement (DA)" does that *PLUS* turns on the nearby outside light for a period. Problem is, the PIR seems to think it's "dark" even when it's quite bright outside. Do I have to do something else clever to enable this day/night sensing? Or is it a "feature" that isn't enabled in this product?

2. In the pantry, I have another PIR (ceiling mounted, 360 degree). It turns the lights on for a period. Sometimes however, we specifically DON'T want the light on, or specifically want it to STAY on. There's a 2-gang NEO in there which only had one used. I've set one as a toggle, the other as an enable, and that works also, so I can manually over-ride the PIR. However, if "herself" wants the light on, and simply presses the "light" switch, it should automatically over-ride the PIR and operate the "disable". I guess I could do it with blocks so the "light" turns on "disable" also.... but that would make turning the light "off" difficult - it would also turn off the disable and the PIR would instantly turn the lights on. A further complication is that there is another switch in the kitchen which turns the pantry light on for a period of (x) minutes. When that is operated, I want the PIR to be disabled - otherwise when someone hits the kitchen switch, then walks into the pantry, the PIR turns off the kitchen switch timer and its own (much shorter) timer runs.

Is there a "nice" or "correct" way to achieve these goals? I have another 10 PIRs to do the same, similar or a combination of these to, so something that can be applied (practically) to a number of (unrelated) sensors would be good.

Thanks,
RossW

 

1. Just a thought - have you tried adjusting the day/night pot on the PIR itself?

2. First, I'd create a dummy GA for your disabling function (eg "pantryPIRdisab"). I just think this is good practice, it keeps your enable/disable and switching functions separate. Set up your kitchen key input using spare blocks to activate this address along with the pantry light.

In the pantry, I'd set one of the Neo keys to an On function (not On/Off toggle), again using blocks to activate the PIR disable address as well. So, the PIR can be overridden and the light left on once you're in there. Set the other key to an Off function that only controls the PIR disable GA, not the light itself. Hit this as you leave the pantry, and the light will be left to time out on the PIR.

From the point of view of "herself", this should provide pretty straightforward functionality - Turn on with timer from the kitchen, manual on/off from the pantry, or automatic operation if the switches are left alone. If you want an "always off" option, you'll have to assign another key somewhere exclusively to the disable function.

 

I can't *SEE* a pot anywhere? I believe the unit is the 5750WPL. It came new, in box from clipsal with all the bits (gland, adhesive pads etc) but no paperwork at all. Perhaps I should go climb the ladder and have a closer look. There must be a removable cover somewhere.

Yes, done that.

The kitchen switch is an 8-gang NEO and has no "spare" blocks available.

Every other (relavent) switch in the place is toggle or dimmer/cycle, so going to an on+off switching in the pantry wouldn't be acceptable.
All I want, really, is if NO switch is pressed anywhere, the PIR operates to turn on and off the light. If one of the other switches is pressed, the PIR is disabled. Kitchen will turn on/off on timer, pantry will turn on/off (toggle) or, if the second switch is pressed, will over-ride and ensure the PIR won't turn the light ON.

 

Sorry, bad advice on the PIR - it's the old 5751L that has the pot I'm talking about.

This is a tricky one, I think you need to either modify the installation or modify your expectations! Such is the joy of having key inputs in the range of PIRs, and trying to use one disable address to keep the lights both on and off.

I'd be going with what I originally wrote if this was in my own house. I'll leave this open to the next person, hopefully there is a solution for you...

 

Sorry, bad advice on the PIR - it's the old 5751L that has the pot I'm talking about.

This is a tricky one, I think you need to either modify the installation or modify your expectations! Such is the joy of having key inputs in the range of PIRs, and trying to use one disable address to keep the lights both on and off.

I'd be going with what I originally wrote if this was in my own house. I'll leave this open to the next person, hopefully there is a solution for you...

 

Ok. Been out, climbed up and had a look, and it does indeed have a pot on the bottom. The graphic indicates it's a "brightness/contrast" control and was mid-span.

I adjusted the programming on the unit so that there are now two blocks set - operating one set of outside lights each, which are clearly visible from the PIR itself (but behind the PIR, out of sensing range).

I programmed "East" to come on for 3 seconds and "Centre/Wall" to come on for 4 seconds. I then set "East" to come on in block LI, and "Centre" for DA.
When I waved my hand in front of the sensor, the centre lights (DA) operated. When I turned the pot clockwise (+) eventually the DA lights stopped comming on but the LI did NOT come on! Trap for new players - the default settings on this device had "RETRIGGER TIMER" only in the LI functions, so of course it wouldn't turn the things on!

It's now behaving exactly as I wanted, thanks for the hints! Now to set up the enable/disable. Oh, how I wish logic were available in the b&w c-touch.
(And don't suggest I upgrade, we tried *SO* desperately to get the physical specs for them when building, in the end cipsal/GI were unable or unwilling to, so the mounting brackets couldn't be made and therefore are not in the walls, which are plaster over concrete block - very difficult to retro-fit now!

I'm not prepared to modify my expectations - that's why we went c-bus in the first place! My old place (built circa 1983) had all home-brew home automation built on a PC with home-made interface cards, did voice announcements, monitored every door, window, movement, 16 environmental conditions (wind, rain, light, PAR, etc), controlled the irrigation, interlocked it if you were silly enough to leave a window open beside a sprinkler etc, full integrated alarm system and heaps more, and I expected to be able to do all that with c-bus, quicker, easier, cheaper. Failed on all 4 counts! (Can't do it all with c-bus, isn't quicker, no easier and certainly not cheaper!)

One disable address to keep the lights is quite do-able and is working. I'll fudge a way around it, I'm sure. One can do a limited amount of (what on the surface LOOKS like logic) without logic. For example, I've got the bathrooms set up so if one turns on the light, thats fine. But if one turns on the heat lamps, the system immediately turns OFF the light (its not required) but will allow you to manually turn on the light again if required. I'm thinking I can work something similar for the disable.

Cheers,
RossW

 

You could easily fit a PAC (Pascal Automation Controller) to add Logic to your site. The PAC is just a small DIN Rail Unit.

 

Yes, 4M if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, at $700 or more, it's a luxury I just cannot justify. As soon as I finish some of the other tasks before me, I'll finish building my low-power SBC running unix and make it do a lot of these tasks that I cannot get C-bus to do (practically or economically). Like (some specific examples here):
* connecting the 60 odd temperature sensors into the network
* connecting CTs for actual, live, load monitoring
- which will enable intelligent load shedding when required
* connecting voltage inputs for solar array, windgen, batteries
- also useful for load shedding or powering hungry loads at best times

I've put just about everything on C-bus relays so I can turn on and off specific power circuits, heaps of lighting circuits, all sorts of heat pumps, transfer pumps, the bioseptic system (and it's hungry pump), hydronics etc, but with all the temperature, pressure, flow, level, current and voltage monitoring, there's not much available to get that information *INTO* the cbus system that I can find. Sure, there are wall-mounted "thermostat" type temperature sensors, but that's not very practical to measure the temperature of an embedded hydronics loop, or an underground GSHP coil, or temperature in a hot water storage tank, or generator exhaust temperature, is it?

 

You sound like a good canididate for CQC (http://www.charmedquark.com/). It has a c-bus driver but also lets you use many other devices with it to give you one central interface to everything. This would then allow you to not have to use c-buse for everything and source some cheaper alternatives.
If you have any coding skills then you can pretty much use anything as long as you write the drivers to suit.

I dont think c-bus was ever meant to be a full on automation system, more a lighting system that is evolving.

Another option is to use a ness M1 instead of a PAC, that is an alarm panel that has evolved into an automation controller (and it has a driver for CQC and a c-bus interface).

There are many option out there

Mick

 

I agree, it's well worth a look. It's very powerfull and has a fantastic looking front end to boot.

Check out their forum as well http://charmedquark.com/phpBB2/index.php