Help with a Thermostat installation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 2SC, Sep 6, 2010.

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  1. 2SC

    2SC

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    I just installed a C-bus thermostat without relays, more for playing with wiser and less for a necessity.
    I have a 8ch Relay unit that is used just for controlling water heater (1 ch the recirculation pump, 1ch the boiler and 1 ch the auxiliary electric heating element), and I thought that it would be nice to use it for the thermostat too.
    However, I have to change the application from lighting to hvac.

    1. If I do that, is there a way to control these 3 channels from my NEO units since they will be in different application, or I will control them only by my MARK I touch screen ?

    2. I tried unsuccessfully to add a climate widget on the wiser just for viewing the room temperature. Is this because I haven't related my thermostat το a relay channel or I should try harder?
     
    2SC, Sep 6, 2010
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  2. 2SC

    Darren Senior Member

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    What do you want it to control ?

    The relay will not work on the HVAC (Air Conditioning) application as it is not compatible. Do you mean the HVAC Actuator Application?

    There is no Widget to show just the temperature. There is only one for full HVAC control.

    You could do something like is discussed in this thread except with the HVAC Application instead of the Measurement Application.
     
    Darren, Sep 6, 2010
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  3. 2SC

    2SC

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    What do you want it to control ?
    Since the thermostat has no inbuilt relay, I need one channel to activate the boiler.

    The relay will not work on the HVAC (Air Conditioning) application as it is not compatible. Do you mean the HVAC Actuator Application?
    Exactly. The 8ch relay should be in the same application with the thermostat, correct?

    There is no Widget to show just the temperature. There is only one for full HVAC control.
    What I meant is, if I haven't relate a relay to the thermostat, should the widget show at least the room temperature?
     
    2SC, Sep 6, 2010
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  4. 2SC

    ashleigh Moderator

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    You need to set the thermostat so that it controls the (external) relays.

    Those external relays need to be in the HVAC actuator application.

    The thermostat will completely control them. DO NOT TRY AND CONTROL THOSE RELAYS FROM A NEO OR ANY OTHER SWITCH AS WELL. This would be a very very bad thing.
     
    ashleigh, Sep 6, 2010
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  5. 2SC

    2SC

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    Let's try another time - it is obvious that my English are not good enough

    Let's rephrase . Maybe I will be more lucky this time.

    My heating installation is best described as a single stage gas furnace with no fan. If I understand correct the installation instructions, I need just one external relay. Since, I have 5 spare channels in a L5508RVF, I would like to use one of these spare channels for the heating installation instead of buying a new module.
    However, when I changed the application on the L5508RVF to HVAC actuator application instead of Lighting that it was before, I couldn't find a way to assign these 3 channels (that they have no connection with my new thermostat) in my NEO switches.

    So probably I should ask from the beginning of this post: Is there a way to assign groups from 2 different applications in a NEO switch or I have to buy a new relay unit?
     
    2SC, Sep 6, 2010
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  6. 2SC

    Darren Senior Member

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    To avoid buying another relay unit, you could just change the thermostat to use the lighting application for the relay control. It is generally best to keep the applications separate, but if you get desperate...
     
    Darren, Sep 6, 2010
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  7. 2SC

    daniel C-Busser Moderator

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    If the NEO has firmware version 1.6.00 or later you can control both a Primary and a Secondary application, for example Lighting and a HVAC Actuator. This can be configured on the Unit Identification tab for the unit.
     
    daniel, Sep 7, 2010
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  8. 2SC

    2SC

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    Thank you Darren and Daniel.
     
    2SC, Sep 7, 2010
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  9. 2SC

    ashleigh Moderator

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    The best solution here would be to change the thermostat to perform the relay control functions on the lighting instead of HVAC actuator application. This means you don't need to change programming of a Neo switch.

    In general this should be avoided but if you only need a single channel relay, then this is the best solution.

    Just don't let any other device try and control that relay channel.
     
    ashleigh, Sep 8, 2010
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  10. 2SC

    2SC

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    Well, since the climate widget is not working in my case, the temptation to have at least a "activate heating" button on wiser is big.
     
    2SC, Sep 8, 2010
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    ashleigh Moderator

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    Climate widget?

    On Wiser?

    The trouble is if you are using a cbus thermostat to control the temperature, then the thermostat AND ONLY THE THERMOSTAT must control that actual turning on and off of the furnace.

    If you decide to take control of the furnace away from the thermostat by sending commands to the relay yourself, then all kinds of hell will break loose.

    DO NOT DO THIS!
     
    ashleigh, Sep 8, 2010
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  12. 2SC

    kjayakumar

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    Hi. The climate control widget seems to work fine for me. I've attached a screenshot showing what I see. You may have posted this but things to double check:
    - checking HVAC parameters specified in the widget such as zone, zone group
    - details of what is "not working"
    - version of firmware
    - version of PICED
    - version of device (iPhone, Nokia, etc)
    - version of Adobe Flash (if using Adobe Flash)

    Hope that helps.
     

    Attached Files:

    kjayakumar, Sep 9, 2010
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  13. 2SC

    2SC

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    Well I will come back with details, however I believe that the climate widget is not working because it supports only heat pump systems and my system is configured as a single stage gas furnace with no fan.
     
    2SC, Sep 9, 2010
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    2SC

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    Well, I made some modifications trying to get the climate widget working.
    First of all, I am connecting to wiser via my laptop and the local network
    Wiser Firmware Version is 1.0.28 and Piced Version 4.9.2.0
    The thermostat was set in toolkit as heat pump reverse cycle to meet the need of climate widget. Also I select HVAC actuator 1 as application. However, I didn't assign the groups generated in relay modules since I do not have a relay unit in HVAC actuator application.

    Then, I created the climate widget as shown. Widget manager didn't let me to make any other modifications than the zone name.

    The result is shown in the pictures attached. When I log in to wiser, I can change mode (heat, cool, fan), I can change the temperature set point and I can switch off the zone. Temperature is always 1C.
    Also if I switch off the zone, then it is not possible to switch it on again.

    http://img840.imageshack.us/g/climatewidgetsetup.png/
     
    2SC, Sep 11, 2010
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  15. 2SC

    kjayakumar

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    Ok, couple of things, the latest Wiser firmware I've seen is 1.21.0 and that's what I see in PICED 4.9.2.0. You're probably clicking on "Status" which shows wifi/routing firmware version which is 1.0.28 as opposed to clicking on "Wiser" which shows the Wiser firmware version.

    I'll try your setup here to see what I get.
     
    kjayakumar, Sep 17, 2010
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  16. 2SC

    2SC

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    Hi kjayakumar.

    Did you check my setup?

    I am showing my wiser to some customers and it is annoying that I can't have the climate widget working correct.
     
    2SC, Sep 30, 2010
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  17. 2SC

    pgordon

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    This can't be right?

    Having just read through this thread, I'm now concerned that my whole plan is trashed.... I want:

    A spare channel on a L5504RVF to connect to my boiler's control board to signal the heating demand - thus providing the ability to turn the CH on & off via CBUS... - the other 3 channels are already being used for lighting, and I want them to stay that way - I only need a single channel to operate the boiler.

    A 5070THBPGWE to serve as the room thermostat - enabling the occupants of the house to set the desired temperature etc. - providing automatic heating operation based on the T-stat temperature measurement...

    The ability to assign buttons on various Saturn & Neo switches around the house to manually turn the heating on & off.

    The ability to use the Wiser iPhone app to also manually control the heating...

    None of which struck me as especially "needy" - but some of the comments made here have now got me seriously worried...

    My first worry was that I might have had to dedicate an entire relay module to a different application (HVAC was it?) just so it could be controlled by the t-stat. However, it seems OK from what I've read to change the t-stat to the lighting application...

    But, why on earth, if I have the CBUS T-stat in the lighting application shouldn't I be free to use other switches to control that relay also? - that's such fundamental functionality... - the t-stat is just that, a simple temperature-only control, - no timer programmability etc... - so I *HAVE* to run my daily heating schedule elsewhere (curent plan is either in Comfort, or perhaps in Wiser) - Also, I want the freedom to be able to hop onto the web interface from the office to bring the heating on just as I leave so I come home to a warm house...

    I can't believe that this should be a problem... - am I worrying unduly? - can the people who have made comments here about not being able to control the relay channel from other input units perhaps explain why?..

    I was *just* about to go ahead and order the CBUS T-stat, but now I think I have to hold off until these questions are resolved...

    Many thanks

    Paul G.
     
    pgordon, Oct 29, 2010
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  18. 2SC

    pgordon

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    Maybe this would work?

    I should probably add, I don't particularly care *HOW* the manual operation of the heating works under the hood, - so long as there is a way of being able to press a button & toggle the heating on & off at will...

    Now perhaps the issue of other input units controlling the relay channel directly are possibly moot? - so long as there is a way for a button to signal to the thermostat to control the channel?...

    So perhaps a model like using the temperature setpoint to simulate on/off would be do-able? - i.e. instead of a button sending an OFF to the relay channel, perhaps I could send a setpoint command to the T-stat to tell it the required temperature is 5 degrees - thus effectively turning the heating off? Similarly in my time schedule programming (don't want the heating on all day in an unoccupied house!) - rather than having the program turn the relay off, again I set the temperature setpoint on the t-stat sufficiently low that heating won't come on...

    Is this the intended way this sort of thing should work?

    TIA

    Paul G.
     
    pgordon, Oct 29, 2010
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    ashleigh Moderator

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    The cbus Thermostat is a COMPLETE CONTROL SYSTEM.

    Internally it has all the smarts to do temperature control. It is NOT just a temperature sensor.

    The thermostat is making a measurement of the room temperature, as well as taking the set-point that was entered into it. From these (and usually from the difference of these) it calculates a DEMAND. The demand is usually larger if there is more heating or cooling needed (eg... the the difference in temp is small -> low demand. If the difference in temp is large -> high demand).

    The calculation of demand is necessarily more complicated than that (for example, rate of change is also considered).

    The demand is then sent to a thing called the PLANT CONTROLLER, this is another software entity inside the thermostat (but it can be in another thermostat, the demand is also sent as a special cbus message). The demand tells the plant controller what it should try and apply to the actual plant, as a percentage of possible - ie lots of heating, lots of cooling, not much, or OFF.

    The plant controller then figures out how to switch the actual physical equipment. This might require a single relay channel to be closed (eg turn on a heat-only single stage furnace which has no demand modulation available, so its either ON or OFF). But it might also involve controlling lots of relays for a multi-stage heat / cool system. Conceivable using only relays you could have 2 stage heat + 2 stage cool + 3 fan speeds = at least 7 relay channels.

    The plant controller COULD also control analogue systems or do other transforms. Such a plant controller does not (yet) exist, but it could. The plant controller is the GLUE that goes between the Neutral Format message (the DEMAND - which is technology independent) and the actual piece of rattling machinery that makes for hotness and coldness.

    NOW... suppose you come along and interpose an additional thingy that bangs out messages to operate the relays that control the plant. The plant controller thought HE was in charge, and you decided to throw a bit of extra stuff in there.

    Bear in mind the plant controller DOES NOT LISTEN - it only controls the relays by transmitting. So if somebody else decides to control those same relays the plant controller has no knowledge of that.

    So it thinks the plant is on (or off) and you have set it some other way. The plant controller is quite at liberty to smack out a setting putting it back the way it thinks it should be, at intervals of whatever it likes (minutes, hours). Or to not do anything.

    In the meantime the rest of the system is still watching the temperature delta, and if it sees a set point that is getting (for example) further away from actual it will be ramping at the demand and asking the plant controller "hey you, DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS".

    And then you might disable the guard function.

    Not to mention what this does to setback.

    ALL THIS IS WHY YOU DONT FEED EXTRA CONTROL THE THE RELAY THAT RUNS THE FURNACE / PLANT / EQUIPMENT.

    The thermostat MUST be the daddy in charge of the plant.

    --------

    So what do you do when you want control from somewhere else?

    The thermostat allows receipt of control messages. This allows you to turn the SYSTEM on and off remotely, just like pressing the front panel button on the thermostat.

    It also allows changing the set point remotely, changing modes, and so on.

    If that is all set up properly then you can turn the system on and off from plain ole switches, use Wiser, etc.

    But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT SET a relay controlling your plant to also share a group address with any other device apart from the thermostat.

    The relay controlling the plant should be in the HVAC actuator application. YOU CAN MOVE IT TO LIGHTING. If you do you open up the dangerous possibility above, but you may have to in order to make optimal use of your available relay channels. If you do that, then there should be 2 participants playing with that relay channel (via its group address): THE RELAY. AND THE THERMOSTAT. AND NOTHING ELSE.

    I hope this clarifies a little about how the thermostat works.

    Here is an analogy:

    My modern car has an engine computer and a throttle. If its like my Dis-Astra, the throttle is electronic - there is no throttle cable. The throttle sets the DEMAND, the engine computer figures out how to jiggle all the bits of the engine around.

    If you then came along and said: "I know, I want "go faster" so I will bypass all that clever stuff and just puff squirts of fuel into the inlet manifold using my big puffer bottle"... then the car probably would not perform very well. And the engine computer will get very confused. And it would all end in tears.

    Trying to DIRECTLY control the plant / equipment and bypass the thermostat in some circumstance is like this. Not a good thing to do.
     
    ashleigh, Oct 30, 2010
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  20. 2SC

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Perhaps to clarify further:

    If you want control of the system, from a location thats not the actual thermostat, then you still need a thermostat. He's the daddy in charge.

    You set up the thermostat to accept control messages (these can be plain on/off from switches, which will turn the system on and off) and also set point / mode control messages (eg from wiser).

    The toolkit GUI allows all of this setup.
     
    ashleigh, Oct 30, 2010
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