how to control Air cond from cbus

hello any one. I am a electrical contractor doing my first cbus job and am not sure as to what relays to use and which wall switch to use.
There is 2 35 amp split units one upstairs and ont downstairs.

My client wants to be able to control the temp and on and off from the cbus and the remote control

I am asuming i can run 2 6mm2 cables from the main board and run the controll cables from the sub board inside where the cubs gear is and the breakers. any one??????????. thanks.
Will Vine .

 

Welcome Will,

I think the way you have proposed is not the best way of tackling CBus integration. Maybe consider using the CBus IR Controller (5034NIRT) to issue IR commands to control the Air Con.

Sounds like your fairly new to CBus? It is strongly advised to do the reasonably priced basic training course (you basically pay for the units you get to take home).

http://www2.clipsal.com/cis/technical/technical_support/training

regards,

Paul

 

Air con controll

Thanks Paul,
I have done the course this time last year but have not really done a large job like this house my only questions as to running the feeds from the meter box is because the air con units are goint to be mounted next to the meter box, to run the feeds from the sub boards will be very difficult. and can i use a DLT to contromm the temp and on/off

 

Split-System Air-Con control via C-Bus

Hey Will,

I think what Paul was getting at is that controlling the units by directly switching the mains on and off via Relays is not the best way to tackle what you are trying to do.

There are four reasons for this:

1) MOST Split-system Air-Cons use InfraRed remote controls to control the temperature, which gives you a way to control the units via a C-Bus IR transmitter, replacing the remote control.

2) Split systems have an inbuilt heater (I believe it is to do with keeping the condenser warm), and if you are manually turning the mains on and off to this, the heater will not serve its purpose. In the long run, this will most definately damage the units.

3) The local electricity supplier will not look too kindly on relay-switching the units, as this will induce power spikes into the phases they are attached to in the surrounding areas, and I can tell you, being the victim of a neighbour doing something similar, that the home owner wont be looked upon too kindly.

4) Also, the more sensitive electronic equipment in the house, such as Home Theatre equipment, Computers, etc, wont like the power spikes either, and it can possibly cause damage to them.


What I believe Paul was trying to say is that you should do the Intermediate 3 level training course Click here for info on the courses which covers the InfraRed aspects of C-Bus.
This will give you full control of the Air-Con units, by allowing you to install and program IR transmitters for the Air-Con units, and this will allow FULL control of them from a C-Bus input unit, including anything you can already control from the A/C's manufacturer's remote control that comes with the units, this includes ON/OFF, as well as the "thermostat" temperature.
This method of control will cuase none of the problems I spoke of before, causing zero damage to any component of the system.

The IR transmitters both Paul and I are talking about are the 5034NIRT units Click here for product webpage

Also, because both the 5034NIRT units, as well as the DLT's are fully programmable, once you have done the training course on the IR gear, you should have no trouble setting up this kind of system.

I hope this has given you a more definative course of action with your install.
Best of luck Will, I hope that all goes well for you.

Best Regards,

Drew

 

Split air cond - cbus

Hey drew, CIS is running its first intermediate training course in june this year. so I will be there. I have just found out that the split system at this job will be intergrated into the walls so the onboard IR sensor will not be able to be used.

Can I program a DLT along with a (L5504RVFCP) and a (5031TS) to operate this system correctly.
Thanks .
Will.

 

5034 nirt the way to go man.

Thanks people sounds like the 5034 NIRT is the way to go.

Thanks Will.
slightly less confused.

 

Hey Will,

In regards to the programming, you will need to ask one of the other guys on here, as I cant give you a definative answer about that.

What I can tell you though, is that the 5034NIRT plates that you have looked at are simply a wall panel as you saw, but if you look closer, the bottom two gangs of the plates are actually small 3.5mm "Phono" jacks, the same as a small headphone jack on a portable music player. The reason for this is that the actual IR transmitters themselves are very small little black "dots", with a cord attached that runs back to the 5034NIRT, plugging into the 3.5mm jacks, which means that even if the units are integrated into the walls, you would still be able to attach one of the small transmitters themselves onto the IR receiver window on the units.
And the fact that these units will be inside the walls, will be even better, as the home owner wont be able to see the black IR transmitter or its lead attached to the units.

Hope this helps

P.S. If you DO end up using an IR solution to your problem, it will mean that you wont have to run the mains feed for the A/C units through any C-Bus relays or anything else, just hard wire them into the mains through MCB's the same way you would at any other installation.

 

IR Solution

Sounds good and cheaper too.
going to work now to make it happen.

thanks
Will
confused not.

 

By the way, you wont need either a L5504RVFCP or a 5031TS at all if you use the 5034NIRT, as all C-Bus control will be done through the IR transmitter, there would be no need for the Temperature sensor either, because by using IR commands, the internal temperature sensor inside the A/C unit would do the job for you, and I'm pretty sure that using this kind of setup will be easier and alot cheaper when it comes to the installation and cost of components, even if it does take a little more brain power to program.

Best of luck

 

External temp sensor.

Hey Drew,

Still here traffic too bad,

The only reason I might need an external temp sensor it that the Air con is in the bulk head which is insulated, so the ambient temp will not be the same.

 

Hey Will,

I can understand what you are saying, but if you were to use the C-Bus tempature sensor, it would mean that the only control you would have of the unit via IR would be to turn the unit on and off, by programming everything so that the Temp Sensor told the A/C via IR to turn off at a certain temp, and turn on at a certain temp. You would still be able to program the use of Fan Speed, Cold or Warm air, On/Off, etc, but you would have to pre-program the A/C to a tempature that would allow it to operate no matter what its internal temperature sensor was telling it, so that the internal sensor wouldnt interfere with what C-Bus was trying to do. Unfortunately for you, having the A/C's internal sensor's measurements clouded by insulation will make things a little more difficult for you.

Hope all goes well, and good luck

 

One general comment on the Mains Wiring, although I'm not sure how you are considering wiring up this job.

There is no rule that says that you need to put all the C-Bus in one central place then spend 3 times as much money on the switched mains cabling radiating out from a central "hub"... it is MUCH better, cheaper, and infinitely more flexible (in future) to distribute the C-Bus into "sub-boards" that are close to the loads !

I know it sounds obvious... but after seeing many electricians put 200 or even more channels of C-Bus in one central location, then running a TPS for each channel up a huge tray and out to the loads scattered all over the house... what a cabling nightmare, impossible to troubleshoot, almost impossible to add onto later, and a waste of time and money too !

Remember that 1 run of Cat 5 + 1 run of Mains ANE (to a sub-board on another floor) is a hell of a lot easier to run than (say) 100 runs of 1.5 TPS !

Oh - and consider using contactors to control large loads, then use the Cbus relay to switch the contactor.

Cheers, John

 

I can certainly see the wisdom in your words John

In your opinion, was I correct in directing Will to use a 5034NIRT instead of mains control by a C-Bus relay and contactor?

And I can certainly understand what you mean about using sub-boards versus one huge Main Board, although I'm assuming you're talking about installations that are bigger than a small 2 or 3 bedroom house?

I'll be interested to hear your feedback.

Kindest Regards,

Darpa

 

Sorry to digress, but the 5034NIRT plates which have 2 transmitters out, does this mean only 2 devices can be controlled or are there transmitters that have multiple heads etc? Also what is the max length for these transmitters ie running one to a ceiling mounted projector?

 

For each of the two outputs, you can plug in either a single or dual-head IR transmitter. But I believe (dont hold me to this) that you can only control one device per output channel, I'm sure one of the other guys will be able to confirm or deny that. Also, the transmitters are meant to be attached to the IR sensor on the equipment being controlled, but I have heard rumours that when they are placed some distance away, like in a custom wall plate at the back of the room, etc, that they have quite a powerful beam.

Also, as far as extending the transmitter heads away from the NIRT plate, I wouldnt extend the cables more than 5-10 metres over their existing length, but if you do, especially further than these distances, I would strongly recommend using some twisted-pair cable, such as Cat5.

Best tip I can give you regarding that, is to attach the length of cable you require to it before you install it, and give it a test.

To control more than two devices, I would recommend buying extra 5034NIRT's, as running long lengths of cable between the NIRT and the transmitter heads may result in unreliable operation.


Hope this helps

 

I have a run of around 8 metres of Cat-5 from my NIRT to an LG air con, works a treat.
I also made up a opto-isolated buffer so I can plug output 2 of the NIRT into my IR distribution system. This is needed because the output of the NIRT is electrically connected to the C-Bus network.

 

And what is the best device to use as the ir receiver? I'd prefer not to use a Neo because it only allows 8 commands, I have a mono touch screen which would possibly be the best as commands are almost unlimited- It just seems a waste to install a touch screen simply because of its ir receiver capabilities...

Sorry to hyjack the thread

 

I'm not sure that any of the C-Bus range would work using third-party remotes, you might be better off having a look at Frank Mc Alinden's site: http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/
He constructs custom IR repeater systems. Although this would mean that your IR system had nothing to do with C-Bus, unless you chose to use them in conjunction with each other.

If you are planning to use C-Bus IR remotes, then you could use the dedicated 5031NIRL C-Bus receiver found Here

It depends more on what remotes you plan to use, what equipment you want to control, and what level of integration you want it to have with C-Bus. If you let me know more detail of your plans, I, or someone else, might be able to specify something more specific.

Regards,

Darpa

 

f you decide to use the "New clipsal remote" with the big blue screen (5030URC), then you could definately use the 5031NIRL C-Bus IR Receiver, and then program the 5034 NIRT IR Transmitters to send the signals to each piece of your equipment, but bear in mind that you will require 1 NIRT channel for each piece of your equipment (1 5034NIRT for each 2 items of equipment you want to control).

As far as I know, you would only require ONE channel on an IR receiver to use the new clipsal remote, but you would need to check with someone else to be 100% sure about that.

It would pay to do a little homework into the URC remote, and check to see exactly how it works, and how it interacts with C-Bus receivers.

Regards,

Drew

 

I just checked with CIS tech support and the 4 channel receiver will only accept 1 command per channel, so the best scenario sounds like using the mono touch screen with a 5030URC... Does anyone else have any other suggestions?