LED lights shopping experience March 2012

Supplier 1 - Osram 10W GU10 with osram fitting

PRO
- works well in small room and normal ceiling height,
- no driver module needed,
- low cost,
- easy to obtain (Bunnings in NSW),
- retrofits very well.
- fast to fit

CON
- some may not like warm white and narrow 30 degree beam,
- only sold with gimble,
- works better with trailing edge,
- works better with Osram lampholder.
- hopeless on 3m high ceiling and dark floors




Supplier 2 - EVO50 15W LED

PRO
- Works amazingly well at 60 degrees and high ceilings.
- Excellent fitting.
- Excellent 4000K / 3200K options,
- 30 / 60 degree angle.
- Excellent range of attachments for finish and ceiling appearance
- offers sealed shower attachment.

CON
- Have to source your own LED driver for older Leading-edge CBUS,
- hopeless as retrofit since flanges dont cover more than 0.5mm on the old holes.
- For older CBUS purchase ACTEC 16W 700ma leading edge (for older systems) LED driver. very expensive compared to trailing edge.

FOOTNOTE
- SCHNAP in Kingsgrove Sydney carry the ACTEC DIM700mA/16W on the shelf.
- ACTEC is the same brand as the trailing edge driver from EVO
- the supplier won't get in a tizz about warranty.

I have dealt with SCHNAP twice on really hard to get items and each time they stayed open for me to get there and the price was the lowest (30% lower) in Sydney. The stock they carry is top quality.




Supplier 3 - Lumitex Barricade 12W

PRO:
- Excellent product,
- good recessed fitting.
- useful Kelvin and beam angle choices
- smooth operation and excellent dimming

CON:
- 12W upper limit,
- can not buy driver on its own,
- all gimbled fittings





Supplier 4 - Victorian Eco lighting / WINPSEN driver

PRO:
- engineered for CBUS,
- CTick approved,
- low price drivers
- wide range of drivers

CON:
- 2 out of the 5 drivers bought did not work as desired out of the box.


Other comments
Many of the high end LED lamp systems are CONSTANT CURRENT and have a variable voltage from 9V-26V. Typically the systems are running at 24V even though the driver is a 12V model.

The second detail is that matching the driver to the power demands is a worthwhile consideration. When you draw about 90% of the drivers capacity in circuit then you will optimise the power conversion. That is why 16W drivers are a good match with 15W LED lamps.

I tested one of the lamps on a preset value using a laboratory power supply and I was able to dim the units by altering the voltage. As I did so the current draw barely moved until I got the voltage down to the drop-off point. I clipped the current at the stated amount because I didn't want to melt the LED's. No doubt it would draw 1amp or more if it was unrestricted.


The Actec is a good offering for someone wanting drivers only. I used the ACTEC DIM700mA/16W for my application. There are many others.

The importer for ACTEC is http://www.sunnylighting.com.au/ .Phoning Sunny Lighting in Sydney is a waste of time. Ask your local wholesaler to help you out or phone an interstate office. 90% of wholesalers have their catalogue on the top shelf collecting dust. But if you know what you want the ACTEC LED DRIVER product is the best in the market.

 

Please confirm

Hi Tobex
You mention supplier 3 "Schneider" Lumitex barricade. Can you pls clarify, As far as I am aware Lumitex is not associated with Schneider Electric.
Cheers

 

I misread the brochure.

 

Which Watt?

A further trap to watch for is what the advertised Wattage of any LED offering actually covers. As Tobex articulately describes, there are two components in the system, the LED module and the driver. BOTH of these consume energy and have wastage in the form of heat.
From my previous testing:
1) Osram measured 10.3W total consumption, as this is an integral unit, should only consume the 10W as no external driver.
2) Evo50 measured 18.5W Total consumption. The Evo50 is a 15W LED plus the driver loss of ~3.5Watt. (with supplied matched driver)
3) Lumitex Baricade measured 12.5W Total consumption. The Baricade is advertised as 15W total consumption. I am advised that the cool white module draws a few watts more than the warm white I tested.

I was speaking to my friendly monlighting rep last week and he was gutted that he'd been piped on a project where the competition was quoting the LED consumption only, not the total consumption as they were.
My only criticism of the EVO is it's total consumption, it is an very good unit. If energy savings are a consideration for your client you would have to seriously consider the 6W saving x qty the barricade offers. I can't find where I filed my data , but from memory they have a very similar output.

To note, the Osram ones I have tested (Ledvance & Luxpoint) work better on a Leading edge dimmer (inc C-Bus L5504D2A) than a trailing, just to buck the trend.
Happy Lighting!

 

more rings!

Hi Tobex
When opening my in-box this morning, I found an email from LED lighting touting (new?) lots of mounting options. Naturally I thought of you!!!
http://www.ledlighting.com.au/EVO50.html

 

I noticed today that the Parathom Pro Par16 has been removed from the OSRAM website and in its place were another 50 or 60 new indoor and outdoor solutions.

With respect to the EVO50 I only had two gripes. a) That I had to work out my own supplier for the LED drivers and b) the supplied trailing edge driver in the standard kit hums loudly on the leading edge circuit.

But when you absolutely need the coverage and you need the light - more is better. The goal was to fit the kitchen out with light that worked properly. Given the height ... EVO50 was the only thing I could use. The result is excellent but there is no way the client will pay that amount to fit the whole house or ever want that much light in other rooms.



Look at the relative brightness of daylight and the EVO50 in the ceiling. You will notice that they are putting out ludicrous amounts of light. How people justify that in a small apartment is anyone's guess. I chose the recessed lamp holder because I didnt want such a massively bright lamp in direct view. The lower power OSRAM units should probably be recessed too but they were less of an issue. IT was a real hassle retrofitting these with such a small flange.

I used a combination of EVO50 and GU10 LED lamps and I saved the client 500W in one space. Judging by the heat damage to the 1999 Phillips GU10 50W lamp I think I saved him about 2KW in excess heat.

 

Nicholas is a top bloke but when it comes to leading edge he knows how I feel.

You notice the little orange rubber covers on the end of the spring arm, those are actually spot melted so that they don't fall off.

 

I am not certain what happened. I liked the concept of the product. My report is just an experience. Does not prove one product is better or worse. Sometimes that just happens.

 

Tobex: thanks for the research and findings. Is it possible to add some prices? is it against forum rules? Otherwise it makes the post less opinionated, what you may call cheap I think is expensive etc.

I've recently been looking closely at the sunnylight LED downlights. Found it interesting that they are by AcTEC. However, looking at AcTECs website the spec's do not line up with sunnylight (lamp life, wattage... that being said models are slightly different but can't find a match).

When it comes to LED downlights I haven't found/seen (personally) a better light production than the Brightgreen D900s 16w. However, for the price I personally can't justify them ($90+ each). To note: 70 000 hours life, 3 year warranty.

Although I haven't tested dimming them, a compact fluro recessed fitting (13w) at $25 each is a much better alternative (full frosted/opaque glass hides the lamp and looks just as good in my opinion, with a warm white lamp of course).

Personally I'm looking most favorably on the sunnylight G10 9w. 240v to the fitting or G10 adapter, can be used in existing downlight fittings if desired, fixed/gimble/fixed-dimmable/gimble-dimmable as options. These are costing a little under $30 a lamp plus adapter and fitting (adapter $2.50, fitting $5 or fitting kit $5/10). To note: 50 000 hours life, no separate transformer.

--------------

About me: no affiliation with products. Spent several years in the automation industry as designer/programmer, now in the commercial sector. Lighting spec's use to play a big role in my design role, not so now but a hobby/interest as I renovate my place. Brightgreen lights went into clients homes with Cbus, Sunnylights have been used by friends.

 

Hi Memphix,

I find that pricing is a highly variable thing. If you use the Clipsal price as your benchmark then this price is your best indicator of industry normal. Anything below Clipsal is cheaper.

I prefer to spend about $50-$100 per LED fitting. If I get involved with something under $50 then two problems will be likely. First it will be too dim and second I have to spend a lot of time figuring out if there are some special problems with the product.

Actec is the supplier for the majority of the Industry but relatively expensive in terms driver price for LEADING EDGE performance. But their leading edge is living up to the quality. So it makes plenty of sense to use it.

Some people look at dollars and some look at how much time is going to be wasted going back and forth trying to satisfy the customer. Over time all of my experiences will be invalid. The industry will mature and even low cost products will be really good. At the moment, in 2012. This is the benchmark above. I have to say that the new OSRAM system with separate transformer is a very pleasant product to work with in the LEADING EDGE environment. Priced at around $75.

9W I dont even look at. I see no point for my situations.

 

I was at a similar point myself, however after having the lux meter out doing the proper tests it appears to be extremely useable. My understanding is that looking directly at an LED light is useless, it's the throw of the light that counts, the lux meter grading that appropriately. At 1.5 meters from the light it was at 290 lux compared to a 50w downlight reading 310 (standard reading level being 300). The cool white (6000k) reading at 420.

I can't say what the life will be like as I haven't experienced one for 50 000 hours yet but if it's AcTEC it should do.

The whole point of low power consumption and being eco friendly with 15/16w LEDs seems like a gimmick to me when you could be using 13w compacts at a third of the cost. Clients with their styles/looks in mind... don't miss that

 

Haha that is amusing, the free swap of the incandescents for CFLs done by the government didn't last long. Not sure where they expect us to dispose of them, and probably don't want to know.

For the not so filthy rich the GU10 models would also have the benefit that a non-electrician could replace the lamp, a benefit over the full fitting with transformer arrangement.

What is the model/code of clipsals? Did not find them quickly browsing the iCat.

 

The GU10 option certainly has it's appeal. It's all self-contained and if you get a dud, it fails or better product comes along then you don't need to get in the roof to swap it out.

I have yet to see a single GU10 fitting that is a match for the separate driver/lamp units available, or that is a match for an MR16 halogen, in all the following areas. Some hit a couple of the areas below, but not all:

• total lumen (light) output
• quality of light (typically measured with units "CRI" or "Ra" by those in the lighting industry)
• dimmable on common leading and trailing edge dimmers
• honesty of claimed performance (look for the Lighting Council SSL label on the product if you want to be sure)
• available at the correct/desired colour temperature
• beam ange (a selection of beam angles that includes a wide beam)
• consistency of intensity across the beam (even-ness of light distribution)
• good cold-to-hot performance (LEDs reduce their output as they heat up)
• good power factor (important in some commercial installations, and will be important the day the electricity companies start charging home owners for reactive power. Poor power nearly always means non-dimmable too and, even if dimmable, places more stress on the dimmer)

The above parameters are often "gamed" by those companies producing cheaper products. Often the quality of light will be sacrificed to get a good lumen output (remember early CFL's that made you look sick, anyone?). Others will produce lenses with a bright central spot so that the peak centre intensity number looks good... but the light distribution is horribly uneven. All-in-one units (typically GU10) usually sacrifice dimming performance to squeeze out as many lumens as possible.

Having said all that I have come across some OK-ish GU10 replacement lamps in the past, so they're not all bad. Just don't buy them expecting them to perform just like a halogen. Work out which aspects of it's performance do or don't matter and be aware that you'll have to make some sacrifices. When you think you've found a product that meets your needs feel free to share it but don't go telling the whole world that you've found the best product in in existence because other people's needs and acceptable sacrifices are probably different to yours and a separate driver/lamp can always be engineered to beat an all-in-one GU10 unit.

 

The problem with ceiling height is that it diminishes with the square of the distance. Therefore a 1m higher ceiling provides 2.8X less light on the same apparatus at the same measuring distance. In lay terms ... less than half. That is just physics in action and in Sydney it is an important consideration with some of the older homes.

 

Not trying to dumb down the science of it, it's more a frustration of inflated prices for a not so new, booming market. First whole house with LED downlights was in 2008 (on Cbus and dimmable on the universal dimmers). It's certainly come a long way, more so in the recent year or two.

Not saying I'm in search of a high end consumers light, more the average consumer.

Good points Newman, I believe the quality of light below your 5000k is measure by Ra as the CRI is typically grading for replication of daylight (natural look/colors). Not sure you'd ever see that flicker like a CFL but who knows with some of that imported rubbish.

Are you replacing halogen downlights on high ceilings? Or are you replacing another type of light? Maybe my view of a 50w halogen downlight is not as great

Good discussion, sorry if I've brought the original good post off topic. Good to hear other people's views in the industry.

 

I always like to bring the physics and theory into design. It goes a long way towards explaining why some things work in newer homes and fail terribly in much older homes. It limits the choices for high ceilings rather dramatically.

 

Cheap = comprimised

Hi Memphix
Re:

Further to the comprehensive response from Newman, any "new" lumen source squashed into a lamp package designed specifically for a different will source will have compromises.
Example: Look at a purpose designed LED downlight such as the EVo50, Baricade or Brightgreen. Look at the engineered design of them, many people have spent hours refining to get the most out of them, most cost effectively. Now look at your "same product" squashed into a GU10 footprint.

! No way can they have the same characteristics.!
Nor the Claimed "50,000hrs" life. Osram and Philips both claim 25,000hrs for their GU10's and these are units you may consider installing in retrofit situations.

A further advantage of the purposed designed LED luminaire is the no further need of heat shielding (subject to manufacturers instructions, eg baricade only requires 30mm space from anything). You still have to meet AS/NZS300 requirements with a GU10 product, because someone could install a halogen GU10 based lamp in there.

If you are installing from new it's a no brainier to go with the purpose designed product. They may be twice the price, but they will most definitely last twice as long and give you half the hassles.

Disclaimer, I am an independent Lighting consultant not connected to or receiving gratuities from any of the mentioned products. My opinions are from my experience of working with each of the products mentioned.

 

AS3000... Is that the 4.5.2.1 (ii) rule? Can you argue the it should be a LED rated lamp? It's saying highest rating, that would be changing the type not just the rating. It wouldn't be a safe thing to do I realize that as the commoners could easily replace it with the wrong thing.

Good point though, limitation of the GU10 for small ceiling clearances... puts me back to square one for my renovation too Oh to have deeper pockets.

Okay... So double the price, what is available at the $50/60 mark? My main experience is with Brightgreens at $90 plus. Are any of those Tobex and Matt mentioned at this price (inc GST)? Looks like I need at seperate (non GU10) fitting.

 

Go the quality option

Hi Memphix and All
Yes, AS/NZS3000:2007 clause 4.5.2.3 recessed luminaires. You can argue, but it still won't meet the requirements of the standard. Unfortunately the draft amendment out for comment still does not have anything specific for LED's, it's all up to what the manufacturer says in their installation instructions. So don't forget another 5-$10 for the heat shield in your budget.
Think also about what you are lighting, downlights are often used through a house because they are perceived as better or "luxury". Unfortunately downlights shove all the light down and do a worse job of lighting the whole room than one incandescent bulb in the middle. Wall lights are also usually overlooked and they provide very good low level lighting. If you want real "scenes" for a room you actually need different lighting "systems" to create reel changes of mood. Dimming some downlights to half dosent create a new "mood" it just reduces the light delivered into a room. That's why people light candles. (end rant)
Also with a better dedicated LED downlight, they have higher outputs than the GU10's so you potentially can use less of them, particularly if you get as wide a beam (rated in xxdegrees on each product) as possible. 60degrees is the most common used, and it is ok, but not great. The GU10's only come up to 40degrees, so you get bright spots under them and much less light around the rest of the room.
If it is for a domestic project, the Lumitex baricade is what I would recommend, last project using30 these cost $78 each (trade ex GST). The baricade (silicon sleeve) is an underrated feature IMO, it stops drafts and closes an open passage from living to ceiling space.

An option is Gamma Illumination. Their website is dreadfully out of date but I have found excellent products at very good prices. They have a wide selection of downlight with many beam options. you want something like their 1095-FL-3K. I can't quote you as haven't used a plain dichoric type equivalent from them.

Another cheaper option I have seen but have not used is Melec. There ML-D15 is approx $65 ex GST, one advantage is it is a 90degree beam, so will spread light around a room better. The ML-A15 is a similar 60 degree down light to the others referenced.

I can't understand how people can rationalise spending many thousands on a control system, then will happily stick the cheapest lamp/luminaire possible in. And which part does most of the work, do you interact with and influences mood? the light source. This whole discussion reminds me on an old saying

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten"

or conversely

"Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten".