Mac OSX automation

Darpa · Aug 30, 2009

Well said Darren.
And thank you for clarifying several points in this recent debate.

Something that just occured to me, and it might sound stupid to many, but just curious of whether it would be of interest to anyone who does not use the Windows OS.

If someone were to build custom embedded PCs, about the size of 2 VHS tapes, that ran a very slimmed down version of windows, used minimal power, but were capable of running all relevant CIS software for C-Bus related programming and operation (Ie; Toolkit, PICED), and could be accessed over a network from any Linux or OSX computer, (using VNC for example), all while being hidden away in a cupboard with a CNI or PCI, or even just sitting next to people's ethernet network hardware.

Would that be a helpful solution to people's problems with CIS software being Windows dependant?

wappinghigh · Aug 30, 2009

Absolutely!

Darpa said:

Well said Darren.
And thank you for clarifying several points in this recent debate.

Something that just occured to me, and it might sound stupid to many, but just curious of whether it would be of interest to anyone who does not use the Windows OS.

If someone were to build custom embedded PCs, about the size of 2 VHS tapes, that ran a very slimmed down version of windows, used minimal power, but were capable of running all relevant CIS software for C-Bus related programming and operation (Ie; Toolkit, PICED), and could be accessed over a network from any Linux or OSX computer, (using VNC for example), all while being hidden away in a cupboard with a CNI or PCI, or even just sitting next to people's ethernet network hardware.

Would that be a helpful solution to people's problems with CIS software being Windows dependant?
Click to expand...

You bet ya....this would be great!

wappinghigh · Aug 30, 2009

Darren said:

The topic of support for the Mac has come up several times on the forum, and is raised at every Point One conference.

I don't want to start a raging debate, but there are a few points which really need to be made so that everyone understands the problem:
1. CIS understands that some people want support for the Mac. Please do not assume that CIS does not know or care. We love our Mac users as much as anyone else
2. Mac users are currently a small minority of the users for C-Bus software. We understand that they are a growing minority, but they still constitute a relatively small number.
3. There are existing solutions (virtual machines, for example) which enable Mac users to commission a C-Bus system. We understand that this is not as nice as having a native Mac application, not nonetheless, it is a solution for many users.
4. The Mac may have a lot of technical benefits - we are not debating that; it is just completely irrelevant to the discussion. If the Mac had won the "war" and become the predominant desktop computer, then you can be sure that all CIS products would have been written for the Mac instead.
5. CIS did some concept software for platform independence many years ago using Java. The application user interface was painfully slow, and would not have been deemed acceptable. There were many other problems with this approach, apart from speed. C-Gate, not having a user interface, was found to be well suited to Java.
6. Now that we have a large suite of software built for the PC platform, it would be an enormous commitment to change. The CIS PC software products (not including C-Gate) together have nearly 3 million lines of code. To rewrite these for another platform (or for platform independence) would require many tens of man-years of work. This has many implications:

CIS only has a finite number of developers. Every CIS product in development would be delayed for a long time (years, or more) to accommodate such an update. I suspect that this would make most CIS customers very unhappy indeed.

To re-do all of the software in a reasonable time (say a couple of years), would require the development team and the test team to be three or four times as large. It would be a huge problem to recruit, train, accommodate and manage all of these people. Then there would be the problem of being overstaffed at the end of the development.

This update would be bound to introduce thousands of new bugs and incompatibilities.

Unless a truly platform independent development was done, we would end up with unhappy customers who still couldn't use our software (on Linux for example).

If we had two versions of all of our software (PC and Mac), then we would have twice the work to update, maintain, test, document and support the software, along with the brand-new problem of incompatibilities between the two software builds.

Every new product development needs to have a business case to justify the work involved. There is not a snowball's chance in hell of being able to justify spending tens of millions of dollars and causing major disruption to the development of other products in order to make life easier for a minority of our customers. If we tried to proceed with something like that, our shareholders would probably (rightly) demand that we all be fired.

I apologise if any of the above sounds harsh, but it is the reality of our situation

We honestly would love to have all of our customers (Mac and Linux users included) being 100% satisfied, but it just isn't going to be possible. We haven't just given up, and we certainly aren't ignoring our Mac and Linux users. We just need to be as efficient and clever as possible and work together to get the best overall solution which is practical for everyone.
Click to expand...

Yeh Yeh understood...

If it wasn't such an issue, why is it raised at every point one conference?
....still using windows xp??

..Who can really be bothered with ALL the networking/update problems/viruses/ old xp interfaces/hastles of running PC's in the home..I've got other things to do, like enjoying and tweeking cbus

So ANY way of helping Apple uses would be useful. Adding more access to cbus/toolkit/PICED via a web/http interface (like you've done for WISER), would be the obvious move....

As a matter of interest have you seen what a mac interfaced platform is REALLY capable of...? see www.savantav.com

....Now tell me why it's not worth at least some initial "planning ahead" for SOME sort of better integration with OSX....
....And with everything moving online to things like "cloud" OS's, google, mobile me, exchange etc, think 10-20 years out...will Windows still even be around???
....I mean why isn't it within the realms of possibility in the not too distant future, that everyones cbus file is actually stored by a secure backup server at CIS, kept in sync realtime with some sort of device like Darpa mentioned, and accessed and edited from "the cloud"......

Darren · Aug 30, 2009

wappinghigh said:

If it wasn't such an issue, why is it raised at every point one conference?
....still using windows xp??
Click to expand...

I didn't say it wasn't a significant issue. For some people (Mac users), it is an issue. For the vast majority of users, it is not an issue at all.

It turns out that Mac users are very passionate, and tend to express their opinion whenever they have an opportunity. It is good to be passionate, we just ask that people understand that what it important for them is irrelevant to others.

wappinghigh said:

..Who can really be bothered with ALL the networking/update problems/viruses/ old xp interfaces/hastles of running PC's in the home..I've got other things to do, like enjoying and tweeking cbus
Click to expand...

I agree to an extent, but this is missing the point. We are not arguing that PCs are a better platform. We are saying that the majority of our users have PCs and want our products to run on PCs. As I explained above, we don't have enough people or time or do everything, so we try to make the most people happy that we can with the time and resources we have. This applies to product development in general. We try to develop products that are most needed, and give the most "bang for the buck".

wappinghigh said:

So ANY way of helping Apple uses would be useful.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It just comes down to priorities. Putting a huge amount of effort into helping Apple users at the expense of all of our others users is not really good business sense.

The best short term solution is to provide guidance for how to get our software running on a Mac using a virtual machine (or similar solutions). There are a few posts already about how this can be done. Maybe we could generate some documentation on various alternatives for Mac and Linux users. Would that be of use?

wappinghigh said:

Adding more access to cbus/toolkit/PICED via a web/http interface (like you've done for WISER), would be the obvious move....
Click to expand...

Here I have to disagree. Providing end user access to control via a web interface is very useful, and the Wiser product does this very well.

Providing installer tools via a web platform would provide no benefit to the end user at all. It might make things easier for some installers, but web based tools would have a lot of other problems. The main problem is that we would never be able to justify the amount of work required (see previous post). It would require a complete re-development. You would not just be able to tack a web front-end onto existing tools.

wappinghigh said:

As a matter of interest have you seen what a mac interfaced platform is REALLY capable of...? see www.savantav.com
Click to expand...

Very nice, but nothing that could not be done with Windows, Linux or one of the embedded operating systems.

wappinghigh said:

....Now tell me why it's not worth at least some initial "planning ahead" for SOME sort of better integration with OSX....
Click to expand...

We aren't ignoring this issue entirely. We do have discussions from time to time about what can be done now and in the future. The problem is that "some" support is not necessarily better than none at all. If you have one application (say ToolKit) which runs on a Mac, you still need some way of running the other applications (PICED, MARPA, CIRCA, TICCA etc). So, to a large extent, it is really all or nothing.

wappinghigh said:

....And with everything moving online to things like google, mobile me, exchange etc, think 10-20 years out...will Windows still even be around???
Click to expand...

Impossible to say. It seems very likely that there will be a gradual transformation of Windows into something else we would not even recognise today.

The problem is which of these myriad bandwagons do you jump on? There is a never ending stream of new technologies, each promising to solve all of your problems. In 2003, we looked very closely at OSGI. It is a platform independent technology (Java) and has a plug-in architecture. It is quite a neat bit of technology. It was going to take the world by storm and allow every product/system to interface to every other one. Clearly it hasn't achieved this yet. Maybe it will one day, but if we had bet the farm on OSGI then (2003), by now (2009) we would be in all sorts of trouble.

wappinghigh · Aug 30, 2009

1/ Re "virtual windows machine"...yep more information would be very useful.

2/ Re web access/platform for installers into Toolkit and PICED within say PACU..I think this would be VERY useful! My Installer is logging on now any changing my WISER offsite all the time, this is saving me heaps of time and money. But as you know not all of cbus can be tweeked this way.

3/ Alot of mac users like myself have moved on from Windows because they are "over" spending time on all the hastles of the operating system and want to spend time on the applications themselves. Perhaps you could develop a "simple" interface that runs on all platforms/or a browser, for end users to tweek basic stuff and for simple firmware updates and leave the complicated Windows stuff of toolkit etc to the installer to tweek via the net. Control 4 uses a similar approach with their "Home Edition" of Navigator. I really hate spending time (again!!) with all the hastles of serial or USB connection into Windows..."failed again..." or mucking around with what is now a very old xp interface...

I'll give you a good example. I've just installed new cbus thermostats, and getting them "set" right for our house is quite an ordeal, because it involves detailed changes in toolkit. It's plain silly, that my installer has to come out everytime, bring his xp laptop, sit on a little chair cramped under the stairs to do this sort of fine tuning. Same for group address changes, power saving, lighting changes or small changes to logic...eg say moving the time forward when the "lights" turn on at a set time in the morning. Whatever the changes may be, it would be easier for basic logic and other simple stuff to be either made "tweekable" using another interface, or accessible via the installer offsite. Nobody said we want access to ALL the runnings of cbus. It's too complicated. But simple access to changes that might matter for everyday living would be really useful..

4/Darpa's idea of a "dedicated" embedded Windows machine running in the background, permanently and exclusively connected to cbus is a great idea. Removes all the cbus-windows interfacing problems and if this was networked with a secure WAN port to the outside world, could provide simple access for point ones/installers. It could even have a simple program running backup of important files at regular intervals...that way leave all the complex toolkit stuff to the installers and let us get on with the fun stuff of using cbus...

Anyway...thanks for listening!!

sasha · Aug 30, 2009

wappinghigh said:

2/ Re web access/platform for installers into Toolkit and PICED within say PACU..I think this would be VERY useful! My Installer is logging on now any changing my WISER offsite all the time, this is saving me heaps of time and money. But as you know not all of cbus can be tweeked this way.
Click to expand...

You can apparently use C-Bus tool kit to connect to a remote network using a CNI or wiser. Doesn't this already do what you want?

You can also get piced to transfer projects to a colour c-touch through wiser. You should be able to transfer projects to a c-touch or paca through wiser and C-Bus. It might be slow, but it is better than a long drive to a distant site

I have heard of people using remote desktop or VNC to remotely program a site too.

It seems to me that web browser applications are not going to add a lot of value. There are more important things to do. Like a ceiling fan control

NickD · Aug 31, 2009

Hi wappinghigh.

I know where you're coming from.. I'm one of the engineers here at CIS, and I'm also a mac convert... I bought my fourth one last week... the first one is still running and has been 24/7 for nearly 6 years.

That said... I'm also realistic... most of the software we write here is for the purposes of commissioning C-Bus. It's a tool. Part of the job of installing C-Bus requires you to have the right tools to do the job, and for better or for worse, one of those tools is a Windows computer. I use a lot of other tools in my job on a daily basis... CAD for drawing schematics and PCBs, simulation tools for circuit design.... I don't expect them to be available on a mac, because I can understand from the software company's point of view there would be little value for them in providing it.

The other point is, that the majority of our end users are not interested in playing with the programming... most of them would either be too busy, or not technically minded enough. You are clearly one of the exceptions.. which is why you're hanging out here You may disagree with me (and our product management) on this... that's OK, but we'll have to agree to disagree, because for all the reasons darren outlined, it's just not going to change.

Now... onto something useful... there are various ways to commission C-Bus stuff from a mac platform..

1) Use Boot Camp. If you have an Intel mac, you can dual boot it and install Windows. Then you just run Toolkit/PICED etc in windows on your mac hardware. Not ideal, as you have to reboot, but the cheapest solution as you only have to pay for a Windows license.

2) Use VMWare Fusion. This lets you run a Windows virtual machine inside OS X. You really want a dual core Intel machine, with a couple of gig of RAM to do this, but these days that's most machines. We actually do most of our development here inside virtual machines, and they run well. This is what I use at home for my managing my own C-Bus installation. This is the next most expensive option, as you have to buy VMWare (<$A$100 if you buy it online.. a bit more in the store from memory), as well as a Windows license. You don't need to reboot in to Windows.. you can swap back into OS X at any time.. but you do have to start up the VM when you want to do something.

3) Run a dedicated Windows machine, and use Remote Desktop. Remote Desktop for mac is a free download, and lets you remotely access a Windows machine. This is something along the lines of Darpa's suggestion... run a dedicated Windows machine on your network, and access it remotely for commissioning your C-Bus gear. Since you're a big fan of the mac hardware... you could get yourself a mac mini (you can pick these up for about US$300-400 on ebay in the US), or you can get an as-good-as-new one with a full warranty on the "Refurbished Mac" page in the Apple Store, usually for about 15% off retail. Install Windows under boot camp (note that with Vista and W7... only the Ultimate and Business versions allow remote desktop connections.. whereas all versions of XP allow them). Obviously this is the most expensive option, but it's probably the quickest when you actually want to do something.

Also...

2/ Re web access/platform for installers into Toolkit and PICED within say PACU..I think this would be VERY useful! My Installer is logging on now any changing my WISER offsite all the time, this is saving me heaps of time and money. But as you know not all of cbus can be tweeked this way.
Click to expand...

and

I'll give you a good example. I've just installed new cbus thermostats, and getting them "set" right for our house is quite an ordeal, because it involves detailed changes in toolkit. It's plain silly, that my installer has to come out everytime, bring his xp laptop, sit on a little chair cramped under the stairs to do this sort of fine tuning.
Click to expand...

Did you know he can use Toolkit to connect to your C-Bus network remotely through the Wiser as well?

HTH.. If you want any assistance with any of the options above... feel free to ask and I'll do what I can.

Nick

Matty · Aug 31, 2009

In response to the post from Will a couple of days ago,

I've noticed that many luxury car manufacturers are now fully supporting the iTunes iPod style interface for control of the iPod library from a vehicle touch screen. I feel that this would be the one thing that I would like to see most on a CTouch.
Click to expand...

The Colour C-Touch has a feature very similar to this. Here's how to use it:

1. First get one of these http://www.iportmusic.com/products/in-wall with RS-232
2. Create a Colour C-Touch project
3. Select 'Start iPod server when program starts' from the 'options 2' tab in the 'project details wizard'.
4. Place a button in the project somewhere that has a special function set to 'media player control'.

Darren · Aug 31, 2009

I have added a new item to our system (#17641) to add support for all of our software for the following operating systems. I can't promise when these will all be complete.

2K
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PM_SZ_OS
PocketLinux
PocketPC 2003
Poseidon
Power Desktop
PowerMAX
PowerOS
PowerSX
PowerUX
Pozix Linux
pQui
ProDOS
Progeny
Prologue
Proolix
ProOSEK
PSOS
pSOSystem
PSP
PSU
PTS DOS
PublicOS
PUD
Puppy
PURE
QDOS
QiLinux
QNX
Quadros
Quantian
RadiOS
Raidiator
RBASIC
RCOSjava
RDOS
ReactOS
REAL-32
Realogy Real Time Architekt
REBOL-IOS
Red Flag
Red Hat
Redmond Linux
redWall
ReWin
REX-80/86
REXX/OS
RHODOS
RIP
RISC OS
RMOS
RMS 68k
RMX
Roadrunner
ROCK
Rock Linux
Rocks Cluster
ROME
Rome
ROOT
ROSLIMS
rPath
rPath Linux
RSTS/E
RSX-11
RT Mach NTT
RT-11
RTEL
RTEMS
RTLinux
rtmk
RTMX
RTOS-32
RTOS-UH
RTS-80
RTX
RTXDOS
Rubix
RxDOS
S.Ha.R.K
Sabayon
Sabayon Linux
Salvare
SAM
Samhain Linux
Sanos
Santa Fe
SCI.Linux
Scientific
SCO Linux
SCO OpenServer
SCOPE
ScorchOS
ScottsNewOS
Scout
SCP
SCP (System Control Program)
ScrudgeWare
Securepoint
Self-R
Sentry Firewall
SeOS
Sequent
SEVMS VAX
Shark
SharpOS
ShawnOS
SIBO
SimplyMEPIS
Sinclair
Sinix
SINTRAN III
Skolelinux
SkyNet
SkyOS
Slackintosh
Slackware
Slamd64
SLAMPP
slax
SLAX
Slikware
SLS
SLYNUX
SME Server
SmoothWall
sMultiTA
SNAPPIX
Sn?frix
SOBS
SoL
Solar_OS
Solaris
Solbourne UNIX
Sorcerer
SOS
SOT Linux
Source Mage
SP6800
Spectra Linux
SphinxOS
Spice
Spice/MT
SPIN
Spinix
SPOX
Spring
Squeak
SSP (System Support Program)
Stampede
STARCOS
STAR-OS
Starplex II OS
StartCom
STD
Sting
Stormix
StressLinux
STUX
STX
Subsump
SuliX
SUMO
Sun Linux
Sun Wah
SunMOS
SunOS
SunriseOS
SuperDOS
SuSE
SVM
SVR
Syllable
Symbian OS
SymbOS
Symobi
Symphony OS
Symphony OS
Synapse
System V Release
SystemRescue
T2
Tablix
Tabos
TABOS
TA-Linux
TalOS
TAOS
Taprobane
TechLinux
TENEX
THE
Thinstation
Thix
ThreadX
ThrillOS
TI-99 4A
Tilix
Tinfoil Hat Linux
TinyOS
TIS APL
TNIX
tomsrtbt
Topologilinux
TOPS-10
TOPS-20
Topsy
Tornado
Torsion
TOS
TPF (Transaction Processing Facility)
TriangleOS
Trinity
Tripos
Trixbox
TRON
TRS-DOS
Tru64 UNIX
Trustix
Truva
TSX-32
TUD:OS
TumiX
TUNES
TupiServer
Tuquito
TurboDOS
Turbolinux
Turkix
UberOS
Ubuntu
UbuntuME
uClinux
UCSD-p
UDOS
Ufficio Zero
UHU-Linux
Ultima
Ultrix
UMDS
UMN
Underground
Uni FLEX
UNI/OS
Unicos
UNICOS/lc
Unifix Linux
Unisys U5000
Unix System
UnixWare
Unununium
uOS
USIX
UTS
Ututo
UXP/V
V2 OS
Vapour
Vector
VERSAdos
Vidalinux
VideoLinux
Vine
Visopsys
Visual Network OS
VLOS
VM/ESA
VM/VSE
VME
VMS
VNLinux
Voltalinux
VRTX/8002
VRTX/OS
VSE
VSOS
VSTa
VTOS
VxWorks
Wazobia
WEGA
White Box
Whitix
Wienux
WIENUX
WildMagnolia
Windows 1.0
Windows 2.0
Windows 2000
Windows 2003 Server
Windows 3.0
Windows 3.1
Windows 3.11
Windows 7
Windows 95
Windows 98
Windows 98 SE
Windows CE
Windows ME
Windows Mobile
Windows NT
Windows Server 2008
Windows Vista
Windows XP
WinLinux 2001
WIZRD
Wolvix
WOMP!
X/OS
Xandros
XAOS
Xarnoppix
Xenix
Xenoppix
X-evian
Xfld
Ximian Desktop
Xinu
x-kernel
xMach
XOS
Xteam
XTS
Xubuntu
Yamit
Yaxic
Yellow Dog
YES
Yggdrasil Linux
Yoctix
Yoper
z/OS
Z9001-OS
ZealOS
Zenwalk
Zeta
Zeus Zilog
zeVenOS
ZMOS
ZoneCD
ZotOS
ZRTS 8000
z-VM

If I have missed any that are important, please let me know

ashleigh · Aug 31, 2009

I want it running on CICS. You will need to rewrite it in RPG for an IBM-370. 3270-screen support is mandatory, in page mode please. I'll settle for a TSO version running as an add-in to SPF, but it's a poor second choice.

When you have done that one then the RSTS-E version should be next on the list. Everyone has a PDP-11 to run it on, they are common as muck. Actually, I have the later LSI-11, a bit more upmarket, and a lot smaller. Top stuff me!

Ashley · Aug 31, 2009

Wow, this is sounding better and better, although I would prefer the Vaxstation 3100 as I gave all my LSI-11 boards away when I moved to Adelaide. I am a bit concerned though Ashleigh that you opted for RSTS-E over RSX11-M

ashleigh · Aug 31, 2009

Ashley said:

Wow, this is sounding better and better, although I would prefer the Vaxstation 3100 as I gave all my LSI-11 boards away when I moved to Adelaide. I am a bit concerned though Ashleigh that you opted for RSTS-E over RSX11-M
Click to expand...

RSX-11M - its a bit like VAX/VMS's little brother. RSTS (RASTAS!!! Another lemming!!! Hmmm, maybe you had to be there) is a bi more raw. You really cop a better experience. It's like driving one of the old Minis like Mr Bean has. You are so close to the road you REALLY KNOW you are driving

Hmm... Perhaps its time for the TRSDOS version as well

wappinghigh · Sep 7, 2009

NickD said:

Hi wappinghigh.

Did you know he can use Toolkit to connect to your C-Bus network remotely through the Wiser as well?

HTH.. If you want any assistance with any of the options above... feel free to ask and I'll do what I can.

Nick
Click to expand...

Thanks for all that..(and your understanding!)......just found out that he's been accessing toolkit through the wiser...

Some simple initial requests...

1/ A much simpler upgrading path would still be appreciated...

..hit "upgrade firmware " within Wiser. Reboot. All done. Toolkit/PICED/cgate whatever all upgraded at once. no multiple logging in via windows. I'm really over the "com port" issues of Windows...

2/ Also a simpler backup method...without turning on Windows....so that everything just get's backed up into time machine...the same way some Linux based routers have the one backup file. There are so many files floating around> PICED/cGate/toolkit....I get lost which ones are important....can't everything just be backed up into the one file?..Lets call it something like "My cbus project file.cbus" or something like that....or is this asking too much?...Regards..

Mac OSX automation

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