Monochrome CTouch locked on downloading

Thinking that the CTouch was like all other components on the CBus network, I used my Network Interface and PICED to attempt to directly transfer a modification to the unit.

Well PICED reported that it failed in sending the data to the unit, but the unit is now locked saying "Uploading data, please wait".

I cannot find any way to reset the unit (Can't run diagnostics because the screen is locked with this message and while PICED can run the ctouch project and turn lights on/off it doesn't do diagnostics from there).

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I may do this?

My last option is to plug in the RJ45/RS232 cable to the back of the unit and see if it can be reset that way.

 

From what you have written it sounds like you tried to download a config file to a CTouch through the C-Bus network ???

Even though this is a standard feature I usually steer clear of it. 1. because it takes ages to download the data (C-Bus was never meant to be a communications network for file transfer.) 2. whenever downloading any data to any unit it is always nerve racking until the unit at the other end reboots and returns with a smile on its face. Downloading firmware is ten times as worrying. Any interuption to comms or corruption of data is usually bad news.

The first thing you need to do is to change PICED to connect via COM(n) and try again with a direct connect on the RS232 connection on the back of the unit.

The second thing you need to do is sit down quietly and carefully re-think exactly what you did to get the CTouch into this locked state. When you have a clear and accurate picture of this in your mind hit yourself with a block of wood over the head. This way you will associate those actions with pain and probably won't end up in this pickle again.

Hope this helps

 

Correct. Not only do clipsal say its possible, every other unit they produce is capable of doing this so I couldn't see any reason why not. The fact that the PICED software also allows this again would suggest that not only is it possible but that Clipsal specifically designed both the unit and the software for this to be possible.

Guess that was my first mistake

That makes very little sense at all. If the unit comes with an RJ45 on the back which allows for RS232 communication then I don't see why the unit isn't capable of the same speeds via the unit itself. I would have assumed at least some decent way of uploading information considering that things like schedules need to be updated fairly regularly (or at least several times a year)

Why is it nerve racking? Is their equipment so shoddy or their programming so poor that its quality and reliability so bad? I had assumed that clipsal was quality product and that years and years of development and support had gone into both it and its configuration.

Another mistake?

That I understand... anything which deals with EEPROM or similar always has inherant risks involved.

That is what I thought, though I am not sure how that will change anything. You would think the unit would have its own timeout and after not actually receiving any transfer in a given timeframe it would reset itself. Mistake #3?

Ok... sitting down and re-thinking.

Don't use ANY feature which is available and which is provided by the software. Maybe PICED should be putting warnings on these things? Would be a simple line of code saying "Warning: This process may take several hours and is flakey at best".

Thanks anyway, its a pity the manual, my installer and the software doesn't provide this kind of simple information.

 

Hi Enigmatic,

Not sure why Phil has given us a roasting on this one. There should be no concerns with downloading correct files configuration to a unit over C-Bus. If for some reason a problem occurs (transient network fault) it should be a case of just re-downloading the configuration. There is nothing inherently dangerous about it. Except for one caveat with older B&W C-Touch. If you have an older C-Touch you need to make sure the PICED version matches the C-Touch firmware or it will lockup the unit. But this is not what you have experienced from your description. There is a big warning about this before you do the download. Currently shipping C-Touch's, and any for about the last year, don't have this problem.

I'm not sure why you had a problem with your download, it is not uncommon to use C-Bus transfers of C-Touch projects, but it will take a while. Serial transfers runs at a much higher speed and therefore is the prefered method. C-Bus traffic is load balanced (so everything else can also run on the bus at the same time) and much slow to be very reliable and allow the amazing variety of topologies that you can have with C-Bus.

You have done everything right. Perhaps restart the C-Touch and try again. I'm not sure of the intricacies of the C-Touch behaviour (not involved in that project) but interupted download is not an unrecoverable or a serious problem.

Not all units can be programmed over C-Bus. We try to allow it though, even though it is much slower. This allows Installers to dial in via a CBTI and reprogram units without having to make a site visit. We have plenty of Installers where a site visit entails a day travel to get there and back.

It is not uncommon for installers to mount a RS232 cable from the C-Touch to a wall socket to allow easy reprogramming (not unmount the unit). I also believe some Installers use extenders to run the RS232 cable back to the patch panel. I'm pretty sure it also works fine using a RS232<->Ethernet gateway device (although I advise getting confirmation on that).

Whatever you do don't panic!

More information on this is available in the "Programmer's Guide" PDF installed with PICED and also in the PICED help file.

 

Thats what I thought. I have tried doing this transfer several times now but with the unit telling me to "please wait" it appears to be locked and refusing to listen.

Now that makes sense

I am using the Network Interface to connect via wireless from my laptop, which I have done without problems with the toolkit to make changes to other units. I have also successfully connected to the unit and tested out the functions that I have modified and all of them are working fine.

Its just the actual transfer that has gone wrong

And that is where my problem lies. "restart the C-Touch and try again".

How exactly does one "restart" this unit? I couldn't find any reset switch nor any means either through PICED or the CBus Toolkit that allowed me to do this.

Thats what it said in the installation manual so I am a little miffed with my installer for not having the foresight to inform me about this and actually setting it up. I am going to have to drag out my old laptop as modern laptops don't have RS232 interfaces any more... you might want to consider that in future plans

Thankfully no panic... just frustration at something very simple not going as planned and the device/software not being robust enough to cope with it. If the C-Touch is now in a mode of receiving data, I would have thought that failure to receive any information over an extended period would have meant it failed the process and returned to its normal state.

Thanks for the help

 

Hi,

I edited my post since your reply (I think) read the change I made about verisons of firmare in the first paragraph.

With newer laptops a USB<->RS232 cable works fine with the B&W C-Touch. We use and recommend the Dontronics product.

To reset the unit unplug the C-Bus cable, wait 10 seconds, and plug it back in.

 

I am not a qualified electrician.

Are all my warrenties etc, etc protected by me actually disconnecting and reconnecting this device?

 

You don't need to be. C-Bus is SELV (Separated Extra Low Voltage - See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELV).

Disconnecting it should not void your manufacturer's warrantee. It is a bit like unplugging your VCR from your TV.

 

I would like to clarify a few issues raised on this thread.

Firstly, we do support downloading via C-Bus and it generally works well. The reason we don't recommend it is that it is very slow (around an hour or more). The help file topic C-Bus Units/Black and White C-Touch/Transferring a Project to the Unit explains the limitations of downloading via C-Bus in detail.

The only time you will have a problem with downloading via C-Bus is if you have unreliable communications on your network for some reason or excessive traffic. A well set-up C-Bus installation will not suffer from these problems.

If you do get in the situation where the download has failed and the C-Touch is still showing the "downloading data, please wait" message, the C-Touch has not "locked up" at all. It is just waiting for the download to finish. If you try downloading again, it will re-connect and start the process from the start again. There is no need to reset the C-Touch unit.

Firmware updates can not be done across C-Bus as explained in the help file.

 

Every time I attempt it I get the same result. It never gets passed 0%, tells me there was a failure and then says the transfer was successful.

I can successfully connect to both CBus and the unit itself, but transferring just doesn't work. No error comes up so I might have to switch to CGate underneath and see if there is an error message coming up there.

Failing that I will just see if I can connect via RS232 and see if transferring that way fixes it.

If that fails, would you recommend me disconnecting the unit and reconnecting it again?

 

OOOPS.

Its far too easy to be misunderstood in this day and age. Maybe I don't communicate well with the "quick" written word or maybe Enigmatic is not having a good day.

Where I said "2. whenever downloading any data to any unit it is always nerve racking until the unit at the other end reboots and returns with a smile on its face." - here I was intending to be very general. Obviously I am not referring to C-Bus units here (input / output units etc) because there is no re-boot aspect to speak of. Programming C-Bus network units over the bus is the only way to do it and is as bullet proof as you can get it. I can now see it was not a good choice of words - "any data to any unit" was meant to be general and not particularly C-Bus related - oh well

Where I said "Downloading firmware is ten times as worrying." then in this case I was not referring to any C-Bus device (basic unit or embedded eg CTouch) again intending to be general. For the context of programming over C-Bus, programming firmware it is not even allowed/possible over the bus it must be direct serial. Recently got a shinny new O2 XDA Atom, went to the O2 site and downloaded the latest firmware. When I read the 20 warning messages about what can happen if the download is interupted (basically send the unit back to the factory) and all the precautions to take, I dedided to leave well enough alone

I have been programming security systems, control systems like C-Bus etc for about 20 years whenever I program in areas of Fimware, OS etc, I hold my breath. Always have always will.

Back on the subject of programming a complex unit like a C-Touch over the bus, in most commercial situations (other than home user etc) there is a high likelihood of others working elsewhere on the install. This presents many many vairables in terms of network comms. Try downloading a CTouch program over C-Bus whilst someone is making wiring connections to a unit on the bus.

All the crap aside - make a direct serial connection and you will probably get that satisfied C-Bus customer smile back where it belongs...

 

I agree.. I hold my breath and pray when downloading firmware to devices as well

 

Back in my day...

How old are you Phil??? 20 years, you will be able to retire soon

 

Oh this is beautiful.

I have been very careful to save my 300th post for my old spar-ing buddy PSC.

PSC pretends he doesn't like me ... but he does ... sort of

The icing on the cake is having Brother Dunc buy into the thread. Dunc comes from quality foundations.

Now, PSC. I started on the tools at about 8 years of age I came from a very poor family and we went hungry on many nights. I vowed that one day I would become something. I want to provide a better life form my boys and those close to me - this includes you Pete.

By the way on a more important note, Enigmatic did you get the CTouch fixed with the direct download???

I start my new job next week, so might not have as much time to spend on the forum

Richo, you know better than to think I would give you guys a hard time - I love you guys. What you guys do is great

 

Well congratulations on both your new job, and achieving your goals for your 300th post

 

Thank You Darpa,

I will have fond memories of post 301 as well

 

I know this is hard to say but I'll give it a go - hmmm "I think I love you Phil"

 

*Plants hidden cameras all through the forum in the hope of catching the "love-in" going on between PSC and Phil.H, so that I can post it all over the net and make millions...*

*evil grin*

 

That is very strange. I haven't heard of that happening before, but as we have said, not a lot of people download to C-Touch via C-Bus.

The only way for us to get to the bottom of what is happening is for you to activate the C-Gate log, attempt a transfer and send the resulting log file to Tech Support for analysis.

That should work well.

Transfer via RS232 is unlikely to fail. If it does, the unit will just reset itself.

 

Disconnected the power and reconnected it again.

"Please progam before using"

Hrmph....

Now came the long and arduous attempt at getting it fixed.

New laptop doesn't have an RS232 port, so I got my old laptop out. My USB stick (thankfully it had 1 USB port) wouldn't work because the Win98SE laptop didn't have the drivers. So I downloaded the drivers, burnt them onto a CDRW and installed them. Didn't work.

I then realised that I might as well burn the PICED software onto CDRW and install it on the old laptop from there. Somehow I dont think the current PICED software will run on Win98SE

So I will try to pick myself up a USB to RS232 converter today so that I can connect directly to the unit and change it from there.