Negative perceptions of CBus pricing

I was looking at a recently developed property in Sydney. It was not so far from the flight path. It was a very high quality terraced dwelling.

I asked the agent if the building was made with
- double glazing
- CBus
- Networking to all rooms
- TV in all rooms

No, no, no, no.

I asked him why it doesn't have Cbus and he said that people cant invest $600,000 into a property built for resale. When I told him that it could have been done for $4,000 he wondered if I was on the same product he was talking about. When I said I wont buy it like that with 1970s technology he told me to do a refurb if I wanted to. Well I wont comment on that statement.

Basically, it comes down to the real basics. Lets take a really long hard look at reality. One light group per room, one switch and nothing overdone. Is it really more than $4,000 for the equipment.

1 x 8 way dimmer
1 x 12 way relay
12 wall plates

If people were to take the designers aside and determine that they can do it the "CBUS WAY" for a little more than the cost of regular and inefficient designs wouldn't the labour actually be lower since you don't have to plan or feed wiring to specific wall positions. You gang the Cat'5 to the walls and throw in the loads to the ceilings and its ready for fitting.

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the way developers see CBus in the market. Let's get back to basics. Light, wallplate and some TV / Network stuff. If it can be given a fair and reasonable price it might actually get used more.

While these jobs are less expensive and make less money - at the same time the volume is much higher, the sites are small and the business repeats often. You are 5X more likely to pickup an electrical job offering the Cbus at low prices in this way. I think that is very worthwhile for people who want simple straight up jobs and can get in and out relatively fast.

I am still shocked that people price Cbus out of the market. That builders don't care one iota about TV and network. Obviously they want someone to fix it later because very stubborn agents who influence design choices for developers all think that CBus is for millionaires - which is silly.

 

The electricians commented on a former job that their costs with C-Bus were 5 times what they would have been without it. Just looking at the C-Bus side of the pricing is misleading when the additional electricians cost variables are not usually calculated by the C-Bus installer.
You also have the issue with a small and simple C-Bus installation of - why bother? If all you are doing is replicating normal features of turn the light on, turn the light off, and a few dimmers here and there, do they really get the benefits of home automation and the wow factor of more advanced special features - or would you consider the simple install as a kind of base build, with the view to adding on upgrade features down the track maybe.
But I agree, it seems just wrong for people to be building new houses - and even going on to describe them as future proofed, when they are not smart wired for things like C-Bus and home networking. And there is a lot of misconceptions about cost and complexity, maybe in part to do with the subtle but complex split incentives amongst the various parties involved in building a new automated home

 

I can only assume that the cost of Cat5 cabling is higher than twin-core power cable. As for labour costs I would agree if the installer was relatively new at the setup and wanted to be certain they didnt make a mistake.

I have done several projects that were "home movie setup + dining room" and that was under 2K. Other projects I did converted existing 1960s homes into CBus and that used the copper pipes that were in the walls from the original build.

There are two schools of thought on the "wow factor" - one is that the owner goes ... wow I didnt have to climb 3 levels to switch off all the lights. Or the other one "wow you love treating your house like a playstation"

Then it comes down to convenience and being able to upgrade, offer new wall plates and then redesign the lighting patterns .... nothing comes close to C-Bus compared to traditional.

The developer wants to sell the building. I wont buy an apartment in its current condition. The things which make the house luxurious are simply not there at all. Therefore, if it was basic and "boring" CBus when I took ownership I can call the installer and have the upgrades done.

Even if the initial setup was on/off/dimming then imagine the cost of making it "wow" once the owner is in the house. That could easily tip the scales at 10 or 20K per apartment / terrace just by adding a few touch screens, a media server, gateway and some really nice programming. Given there are 6 terraces on the one site there is always a chance of doing more later. And as you know .... people talk over the fence and everyone wants what the other people have.

CBus lets you build a Ferrari out of a Holden. But you cant build a Holden out of a push bike.

 

Sorry to be critical but from the Clipsal catalogue
RRP for L5512RVF relay $1415
RRP for L5508D1A dimmer $1235
RRP for 18 basic single gang light switches, (no scenes) $2374
So for $4000 you wont get much more than the parts you listed sitting in their boxes.

RRP for colour CTouch is $4796 not including a bracket to mount it.
RRP for Wiser is $1491.
Both also require work to create a project.
Warranty is 2 years but even if they last for 10 years.
It still puts it into a different league compared to conventional wiring and thats not a negative perception.
When it comes to the functionality of CBus scenes, schedules, timers, logic, control of other devices etc.
It's the reality.
The worst thing about the comments in this thread is that when someone reads that you reckon you can put CBus in a home for $4000 they are in for a big disappointment.
Having said all that I will agree that if anyone plans to have some CBus functionality at some stage down the track it would make sense to put the basic system in during construction.

 

So basically, no matter what happens people need a massive profit on Cbus even though they are doing the whole entire electrical for the whole house.

I said that the Cbus adds $4000. I didnt say that it costs $4000.

Now in my poor judgement I already assumed that you were also doing the mains, meter box, kitchen, laundry, heating, cooling and all the other jobs.

Why on earth does CBus need to be sold at some astronomical price when clearly it is a consumer technology. It doesnt even need an installer when you can do the coding with the learning technology.

I must be missing something ...

In an average $20K to $30K package for a whole building, which is more or less the basic price of electrical fitout, why would CBUS represent more expense than the rest of the work being carried out when labour can be divided out of the cost of the materials.

I would rather have an intelligent and decent electrician who understands my networking and TV needs in the first place. That will be more expensive overall with or without CBUS because you get what you pay for in labour.

 

My apologies Tobex.
I thought you were suggesting $4000 for the whole installation.

 

"I would rather have an intelligent and decent electrician who understands my networking and TV needs in the first place."

The electrician isn't really working for you. They are more likely sub contracting i.e. answerable and accountable - to the builder. The builder wants an electrician he knows and trusts, perhaps has worked with previously, and mainly he just wants whoever prices the job cheapest that he trusts to get the job done.
The key to cheap electrican contracting is speed - banging out plugs and sockets in the shortest possible time.
C-Bus is more risk prone, get it right first time and no worries. But make a mistake, take a shortcut in the wrong place and it can wipeout any profit margin if you have priced very low. It requires more investment in pre-thinking, at odds with the 'bang it out' conditioning of conventional electrical contracting.
I think part of the solution lies in improving what happens in the grey area of responsibility between the different contractors, to reduce the risks and to optimise the electricians cost perspective and make the install easier for them to 'bang out

 

Well so long as they have the perception that they cant afford a decently skilled expert they will pursue other options.

To his credit, while being very focused on the dollar, the real estate agent was willing to make representations about C-Bus to the developers and take any schemes or ideas which make resale easier to the developers.

He didnt say ... no I wont do it. He said ... I need to see how its possible because I cant imagine it.

 

No worries, I was talking about "the extra" price to get CBus in the job. Really basic stuff.