New Install Jitters - Need some advice

Howdy all.

Great site you?ve got here. Great depositry of information and a friendly bunch of people, mostly. Long time reader, first time poster. So? enough of the formalities and ass kissing!

We?re currently building our first house and I?ve managed to convince the wife to fit some C-Bus gear on the budget. Then I convinced her to add a few more things? now we have all the lighting running through C-Bus and have wired for StarServe and MRA. A guy once told me 'the average C-Bus install costs about $5,000" LOL... I'd like to see an average install.

A couple of reasons I?m posting. Firstly, I?m want to make sure I am getting all the equipment I need sorted out now so there are no surprises in the future due to the inability to expand or change the setup.

Secondly, I?m not too sure exactly about power requirements on the C-Bus network side. The calculator I was using was missing a lot of the units or wasn?t too clear on how to add them. I was hoping there was an easier way of doing it other than creating a project in Toolkit just to calculate power requirements. I did notice JohnC talking about a magical spreadsheet? I want to make sure I have enough to cover the current network but also allow me to expand a reasonable amount. Will too much power have a negative effect?

Thirdly, Software. What is needed to get the most out of C-Bus? For now it will mainly be for lighting and maybe a few blind/curtain motors. Will Toolkit, C-Gate and PICED suffice for now?

I think that will do for starters. Below is a list of planned units for my network. Any advise on the current listing would be much appreciated. My main concern at the moment is the power requirements.

Code:

5050CTC		x 1 - Colour C-Touch
SC5000CT	x 2 - B&W C-Touch
L5512RVF	x 3 - 12 Channel Relay (can these be L5512RVFP?)
L5508D1A	x 3 - 8 Channel Dimmer (already have)
5055DL		x 8 - NEO DLT
5052NL		x 6 - NEO 2 Gang
5054NL		x 4 - NEO 4 Gang
5058NL		x 8 - NEO 8 Gang
5500CN		x 1 - Network Interface
5500PC		x 1 - PC Interface (already have)

I think we may also be having a few sensors and the like, just not too sure of type. Basically I need to know if 3 Dimmers will be enough to power this setup or if not how many Relays will I need to get with built in power supplies?

Any help/advice/warnings would be much appreciated. Smart ass remarks will also be appreciated but ultimately ignored.

Thanks guys and sorry about the long winded post.

Cheers!
Ben

 

Oh... I forgot to add that 'hand over' is meant to occur at the end of this month (July 06). So nothing like a little bit of pressure!

 

Ben,

I have just completed my C-Bus install in my home and is a similar size to yours. Personally I would have power supplies on all 6 of your relays/units. This is well under the 2A limit for a network but will also provide redundancy should a relay/dimmer unit fail- eg loose a relay and your network is still powered with 1A. It will also allow for future additions of switches, touchscreens, sensors etc.

I also notice that you have quite a number of switches- Perhaps consider using occupancy/multi sensors for WIR's, WC's, cupboards etc. You will find that the sensors are a little cheaper than 2 gang Neo's and gives you the advantage of "Truely" automating your house.

If you are after a "Cheap but not nasty" alternative for the CTC, consider using a PC, Homegate software and a touchscreen TFT. I'm putting one together at the moment at around half the cost of a CTC- And the touch screen will be 15". Although this setup does not have the logic functionality, I can add the PAC later on.

Cheers

 

Good advice Skyline. Sensors are great!
Also, I would highly recommend more dlt's instead of 8 gang neos. After having a couple installed at home guests (and sometimes homeowners), get very confused with 8 gang switches- unless you are using them for their IR capabilities.
All the best

 

Label the switches
Did that at home on our 2000 series switches and the wife has NO problems knowing what each button is for now.

 

I'll also add that if I had my time again, I would have bought DLT's instead of the 4/6 gang Saturns I installed... So much easier to identify and very cool to look at...

Cheers

 

Skyline, have you calculated the running and maintenance costs of both the CTC and Custom unit over a 10 year service life?

I find it hard to believe you would be saving that much money if you built a customer solution designed to work reliably for 10 years, with low power consumption (heck it's running 24x7) and have minimal maintenance.

Now, I'm not saying that there isn't a place for custom systems, I'm just saying I'm not convinced that cost is valid argument when looking at the costs over the lifetime of the product.

 

Agree Richo, especially for your clients but for the sparkie completing his own install in his own home, I believe it's a better proposition. yes running costs should be taken into account, especially as PC's date rapidly but I also look at it this way:

1. Functionality- Over time, people will want to access media servers, web etc via their CTC. This way, the PC completes both tasks.

2.Shuttle box arrangements are quite good power wise. Even utilising a fanless type panel PC utilise less power- But slightly higher initial cost.

3. TFT's have power save modes, so it's drawing bugger all in standby mode. Also good for prolonging the life of the TFT.

4. Apart from the environment , if you have the cash to pay for c-bus, the running costs are minimal compared to the initial outlay. If people are that concerned with an expensive power bill, don't install C-Bus or install solar panels

For me, I cannot see the cost-benefit in a CTC, considering it's only a 6" screen. In my situation I have a PC running other items so it's logical to utilise this.

Cheers

 

I have personally had little success in selling the CTC, the clients tend to have a cardiac arrest when you say that a 7" touchscreen is going to cost them $4055 (retail) plus programming time. No matter how you word it, $4K is a huge amount of money for what (in their eyes) is a small TV screen - even though we all know it is much much more than that !

The CTC is a great device, no question about it... but I think the clients tend to think of it at ($4055/7"=) $579 per inch. And most of the (domestic) clients mainly want a TouchScreen for that elusive "w@nk factor" to show off to friends... and a 7" or even a 12" screen just ain't gunna cut the mustard on that score. Remember, the market is clients who are putting 82cm Widescreen HD plasmas in their kitchens as a 2nd or 3rd TV!

The only real alternative is Homegate and a 15-17" recessed LCD panel, and all the associated dramas relating to heat, power consumption, finding somewhere for the PC, cabling of Comms VGA and Serial between screen and PC, etc etc. It's not that more cost effective, but in the end they end up with a 17" screen that they want !

So, I'm not knocking the product at all - but must say that so far I haven't found a client who would install such a small screen, even if it was $1000 ! But please keep in mind that I was working at the extreme "high-end" of the domestic lighting market, where they want the solution first - and price is a very definite second priority.

Cheers, John

 

Hey John,

You must be selling to the povo end of the market.. the CTC's are marching out the door

 

But size DOES matter - to some people

LOL, Duncan !

Nah - it wasn't the $4K that our clients had a problem with... They just considered they needed something a bit bigger than the headrest DVD screens in their latest Euro 4WD they'd bought for spare car

Thinking back, adding C-bus was exceptionally cheap compared to the money the clients were spending (wasting?) on the lighting inside these houses - let alone all the other stuff they jammed into them. It never ceased to amaze me how many cubic dollars are concentrated in that thin strip of land around every single waterway in Sydney !

In some ways, we were almost selling C-Bus as a bit of "bling factor" and nice "add-on" to our projects. That same $4K for a touchscreen only bought you ONE table lamp from my previous employer's company, and not a particularly big or flash looking one either ! It was not uncommon for $50 or $100K of lighting to go into one of those homes, and some were only refurbishments.
... suffice to say that even at staff discounts I didn't buy one item for myself

Anyway I'd always offer the Clipsal CTC as the best solution (because it really is the best overall), but the client would almost inevitably reply with "and how much extra to get a decent sized screen on the thing?"

Cheers, John

PS: Despite what you may hear, my previous employers did NOT have a TV show named "Pimp My House".

 

High John,

I hear you and I would say it is impossible to create one product that would service the high end market and the bread and butter market. For the customers you describe a custom solution is probably best and they have the money to service the solution over it's life time.