Newbie, new build, am I on the right track?

I'm new here (hi everyone!) and I've joined because I'm looking at building a new house and I know very well that wiring is much easier to do at the build stage then afterwards - especially for a double story like mine will almost certainly be. I'm from an IT background and my dad is an electrical engineer so I have a decent background knowledge to help me understand explanations but I am entirely new to home automation.

Here is a general picture of what I want to achieve long term:

• fine grained programmable control of lighting.
• remote/automated control of ceiling fans.
• remote/automated control of heating/cooling either ducted or split systems.
• automating external blinds.
• linking in sensors to tell me if doors/windows are open.
• keyless main entry door.
• centralised AV system (multiple TV points and seding music from various sources to different rooms)
• macro programs like the 'welcome home', 'goodbye', etc.

Most of this will not be immediately implemented - I haven't the funds - but I want to work out what is the key things to pre-wire. I will be running cat6 to as many places as possible for pure networking and the TV points and I think dedicated audio cable for ceiling speakers; that isn't part of the cbus I don't believe.

However, I think the biggest for the wired cbus will be the lights, right? Wiring to each light or light-group and each physical switch spot? Then back to either multiple central spots which each in turn have a lead back to the main cabinet? Or all back to the main cabinet? Can I have them just put in a basic single physical switch and replace later with multiple switches in a single location, so long as the cbus cables go to the individual lights?

Is there any other item on my list that would specifically benefit from pre-wiring instead of using a wireless module to extend in the future? I do know that I want to be able to control it via an android tablet and PC so I believe that is the 'wiser' system, yes? I am hoping that with a good designer, I will be able to re-program myself as needed in future to extend it.

I don't have a specific budget set; my objective right now is to work out what it is most cost effective to do now, at the build stage, to get future flexibility. Any advice on whether I'm on the right track with my thinking so far? And... I can't find anywhere that tells me if I have a nearby showroom - I am in south-east melbourne - so if anyone has a recommendation about somewhere I can go to see cbus stuff in person, I'd be grateful.

 

Some quick tips from me.

The CBus light switches called key inputs, don't have 240V power going to them.
So I think it is a bad idea to start off with any conventional wiring arrangement for the lighting with a view to changing it later.

It will be wise to look at some other installs to get some ideas.

Research every component well to make sure it is going to be fit for purpose now and hopefully into the future (eg LED's and dimming).
Not every fitting needs to be dimmed and relays will give you a wider choice in light fittings.

Allow lots of space for switchboards and data gear and then some more.

Run all your cabling with best efforts to segregation, protection and serviceability possible following Clipsal's recommendations.

Label and document everything.

You really need to plan the job very well especially since it may be hard to alter later on a 2 storey home.

Make your life simple by avoiding having too many buttons on each key switch.

You can always add some fancy scenarios with a logic device later.

Good luck

 

Wire your C-Bus for everything you think you will want - cable is cheap.

Don't forget things like motion sensors, either indoor or outdoor models and make sure the pink cables gets there.

C-bus is also doing blinds/shutters, ceiling fans etc, so make sure you have these sorted out as well.

This is only the start, you will love the system and very quickly realize that home automation is not that much of a leap and get hooked.

A PAC can do it but is limited to two serial ports. If you want more systems linked together then you need something else.

My preference is not to use C-Bus for everything. You mention AC. While there is a C-Bus thermostat, if your selected system is not compatible then its a no-go so you need to find a system that has an automation interface and then decide on how you are going to link the systems together.

As en example, I have C-Bus (of course) with ceiling fans connected to their fan controller. The AC (Advantage Air Gen III) also has an automation interface. Both systems are connected to my HA server (running CQC). When the AC is turned on (each room is a zone) and if there is a fan in that room, the HA system knows the room AC is on and then tells the lighting system to turn the ceiling fan on.

The alarm panel also needs either an automation interface and/or a C-Bus interface. There are panels with C-Bus interfaces so I would go that way as long as it also has a serial/ethernet interface for connecting to the HA system (I use a Ness M1 with a C-Bus interface and an ethernet interface to CQC). Many internal doors in the house (all are monitored by the alarm panel) will turn lights on automatically. e.g. open the laundry door and the light comes on for 10 minutes. Close it and it turns off.

Sorry for the long post - but it could be a lot longer. PM if you want more info or advice on what to start looking at.

Good Luck

Mick

 

Hello,

I too am building soon so when I came across this post it was very handy to read. We've had C-bus in our past house, but we purchased it with it already installed. So while I was able to add to it, specifically shutters, as well as change some of the setting and programming, I was not part of the install or the spec when the house was built. Plus, the house had Minder plus c-bus and it was all integrated.

So one question is, what currently has taken the place of Minder? I liked Minder because it was integrated with the house alarm, motion sensors as well as the garden sprinklers. If wanted to do something similar (or better) in my new house, what do I do?

I understand the cabling aspect - generally anything I want controlled by c-bus must be terminated into a c-bus module. So lighting is a given as are shutters as I know what these need. What about A/C? Alarm? Should I look at the pool as well?

At present nothing is specified in the house electrical design, so I am hoping to select items which can be part of c-bus and which are appropriate. I also have a budget for this, I hope it is enough though! Can someone advise were do I start!

Ped.

 

one step!

Hello (again),

Some reading of past posts helps!

Okay, so I am now looking at Ness automation modules and their accessories as a means of controlling aircon, alarm and possibly other things. It has a connection to C-bus as well. But I'm not clear on the bigger picture and how this fits logically into the rest of a house. C-bus is connected directly to various devices, typically lighting (in my old house) sprinklers and shutters. But the Minder module took care of the logic side of things as well as the alarm. So I had scenarios which did various things and because I used to be programmer, it was easy enough to follow existing code and modify / reuse.

But does the Ness provide a logic engine for configuring the way devices are activated? Or does something like wiser do that? Am struggling the get a grip on where things like PICED and c-gate fit in too. Will do more searching, but if there is a primer for this I'd appreciate a link!

Ped

 

The Ness M1 can provide security as well as low voltage control of things like sprinkler systems, garage doors etc very economically. It provides a Rule based programming environment (similar to the Minder but not as comprehensive) which is fine for simple control but gets get very unwieldy when you want to get clever. A CBus interface is available, as is a network interface.
The Wiser, PAC and certain Touch Screens provide a Pascal like programming environment which is considerably more flexible and adequate for all but the most complex situations. If you want to get really carried away you can write PC or MAC applications that interface to CGate, a windows based CBus server.
PICED is used to program the Wiser, PAC, and Touch Screens.

The Wiser gives you remote access via an Apple or Android smartphone/tablet

 

Start by understanding where you WANT to be i.e. include everything. Then understand what is required to achieve this. What hardware you need and cabling required.

Then take a step back and look at what you can afford now but also include stuff that can't be done easily or as cheaply after the build such as cabling.

Try not to buy now so you dont have to replace later on. I.e. if you need 6 serial ports for the full install but only two now, go for the six now as this will only help to impeded future additions.

Look at the pool? - Definitely

Look at everything, pool, A/C, Alarm, Lighting, TV's, Receivers, Whole House A/V, Fans, Shutters, Curtains/blinds, doors (garage and internal as well), solar systems, power monitoring, water tanks.

Plan now for an easier install. Leave it to later and things get harder to achieve.

Mick

 

Hello Znelbok, Ashley and other who have responded some time ago.

Some time has passed since I posted my question. In that time the house design has firmed, the ground broken and now the house has just started to take shape. Had a second child too, but that's another story (mostly to do with less sleep). What I have also worked out is exactly what I want the c-bus to do. To that end I have also obtained quotes from local companies to achieve this. Briefly, what I wanted to do is control the:

1) roller shutters,
2) house alarm,
3) lights and automation (such as movement activation) and
4) a/c.

I reduced my want list to this because the quotes I obtained seemed to be heading toward $100k for what I wanted and even that did not include the pre-wiring. As it now stands, the above list will cost $55k from one quote.
So my question is whether that is about right? I know it depends on how many relays and device and such, but can I also ask what drives the price up and where I can save? I had budgeted $35k for the c-bus, on top of the cost to electrically wire a (standard) new build.

In the previous house I added the shutters to the existing install, so I am sure I can do this now, so long as the shutters are wired back to the c-bus hub location, which they will be. But what of the rest? I don't think I can do the alarm or the initial commissioning, but maybe I could reduce some items thereby reducing the price?

Any responses are appreciated,

Cheers,

P_R.

 

There are two aspects to a system. The control hardware and the user interface.

What is the glue that is binding it all together (assume C-Bus in this case)?

C-Bus is capable of controlling most but how is it connecting to your AC?

Things like the alarm system can be limited to a small portion of control via a c-bus interface and or require extra logic just to do simple things from a C-Bus switch. A motion detector can turn a light on and a C-Bus switch can open your garage door (or activate any other relay on the alarm), but switches are expensive - which is why I use a lot of softswitches on the touchscreen and leave only the high use stuff to a dedicated C-Bus input button.

What is you preferred method in interaciton with the system?

Do you plan to go further in the future as finances allow (TV's, Home Theare equipment, Audio equipment, irrigation and any other misc equipment).

Things like roller shutters are done with the C-Bus blind controller but I am not aware of a C-Bus interface for A/C. I know of serial interfaces which would mean connecting to the PAC for C-Bus control. I personally dont have my C-Bus connected to my AC, rather there is a gateway (CQC is my choice) binding everything (and I mean everything) together and passing commands when required to give the "apearance" of a direct connected system. (i.e. an AC zone turns on and if there is a ceiling fan in that zone it turns on as well. Bedrooms have a C-Bus input to turn the AC on in that room only and another to turn everything off such as TV, Lights, Fan and AC - which some are not conencted to C-Bus in any physical way)

The alarm of your choice should have a C-Bus interface. If not it needs an interface (IP or serial) to allow control via an external device (such as a PC running HA software or a PAC)

Mick

 

Hello Znelbok,

Thank you for responding and the information.

The plan at this stage is the have c-bus as the underlying system and from that connect all other components. The alarm is specified as NESS M1. The AC will be via a module (I'm told) and that will allow only basic functions, ie on or off. I'm find with that, the module is $100 as even if it proves to be insufficient level of control, I'm not worried. It is more that I had before.

The lighting and alarm will be linked so when the perimeter alarm is activated, the interior can be lit when a person walks to the toilet for example. I had this in my past house. This is similar to your scenario mentioned in a past post.

What I want to ask is what interface do I need? I presume that one eDLT is sufficient. If I want to make any changes to the system or the programming, I will connect up to the network and change either the settings or the programming. Do I need to have a touchscreen (RTI XP in this case) at all if I have one eDLT?

I'm not totally clear on this hence the questions. The c-bus in the undelying system with various bits attached. The programming (which I am fine with) is the via another module Wiser, PAC so then I can control all other items with these. And these too I can add in later as I presume they are DIN modules which connect with a standard pink cable.

Thank you again for the advice. Slowly getting clearer....

P_R