Newbie to CBus

I am an absolute Newbie to Cbus. Just purchsed a house with Cbus in every room, and a single wall mounted controller.

Would greatly appreciate some guidance as to some good reading material to get a basic understanding of this system, its capabilities and limitations.

We are renting our place out at the moment, but when we eventually move in, I would like to:

-Know the basic operational principals, architecture etc
-Learn some basic programming
-Understand what can interface with the Ethernet interfaces
-Understand the tangle of Ethernet wiring in our basement junction box
-Look into interfacing a multi-room media system access through this system.

Any guidance, from most simple to more complex much appreciated!!

 

Hello Gents,

Coming from an Industrial Automation background, I always believed that the only difference between pink (C-bus) and standard Cat-5 network cable is (adequate) insulation between Mains and low-voltage C-bus when wiring inside live Mains Distribution Panels (MDP's).

When wiring outside these MDP's, standard Cat-5 can be used.

For reference, please refer to this explanation @ Wikipedia

 

Hello NickD,
Thank you for your feedback, appreciated.

For my application though I will use colored Cat 5 throughout, with screening barriers in place inside the MDP..

Seeing I will most likely live in this house for the rest of my life, I would be happy paying significantly less for std Cat5E, which wil give me the same functionality. The main reason Clipsal is forcing the pink cable issue is ? I just thought I'd point that the 2nd post in this thread is factually incorrect.

For the layperson though, probably the best to stick with the standard Pink C-bus cable is Cat 5 with (sligthly) different insulation properties, and not much more than that .... and which should be used inside MDP, but in absence of mains power, std Cat5E will work exactly the same. For me, considering the 1gb speed potential of std Cat5E, the claimed benefit of custom-wired-to-improve-noise-resistance of the pink cable doesn't hold water.

Have a good one.

 

Hello NickD,
Appreciate your time to reply - as an automation specialist, my comments were more tongue-in-the-cheek than anything else.

It wasn't implied in this thread, but a comment I picked up on Clipsal's site by one of the Reps. So the inference is there that this cable makes use of special engineering minimise EMI, hence my comment above.

Considering the maximum 1km length of C-bus/network, I estimate speeds to be <1mbit? Probably closer to 115k baud and below - but, this is just an assumption from my side.

Mmm....seeing there are already so many decent fieldbus solutions out there, like Profibus, CANbus/DeviceNET, et al, it would most likely have been easier, and better supported by Industrial Hardware, to have selected one of those.

This would enable us with very nice industrial hardware, like a PLC or DCS, using analog- and digital IO, Temp controllers, et al, to interface to the end devices.

This way you can interface to Fans, pumps, motors, etc, via small dedicated VFD's (like Omron V1000) and control (via 12 to 14-bit analog output) speeds.

You can setup closed-loop controls for whatever your hart desires....or remotely control items from different HMI's, in local/remote modes et al

I will most likely use my own UI, and either find devices that suports MOD-TCP or RTU, and control them directly, or, fork out for C-Bus Gateway and OPC Server, and setup my DCS as a Client, and control it from there.

That way I can very easily build my own graphics, (based on our custom xml graphics generator) and control the final control elements.

It is just a pity that I have access to much better hardware than anything out there for home automation, but in this case, the home automation market is very immature in that we don't have (interface) support for lights, fans, etc, in the standard industrial control protocols.

CAN/Devicenet would have been fine, as CAN is the major Control Area Network used in cars today, and I suspect, at least from an electrical perspective, that C-bus is closely based on this protocol.

Protocol wise CAN is interrupt driven though, and from what I can tell, C-bus is more of a deterministic bus.

To OP: Soz for off-topic.

Have a good one, chat later again, and nice getting feedback from you

 

NickD,
Any idea if there's an initiative to develop better (read better supported by industry protocols) devices, like light-switches, fans, et al?

Say for example, ceiling-fans with a build-in small variable frequency drive, capable of accepting 0-10V analog input - this would realy make home-automation available to a wider spectrum of people, as well as stimulate healthy competition - never good to have a monopoly......

 

Not really sure what you mean by this. C-Bus has a range of native switches, other mechanical switches can be interfaced using bus couplers or auxiliary input units, other protocols can be interfaced with in a variety of different ways through C-Bus Enabled, hardware interfaces (e.g. RS-232, DALI, DSI, DMX), software interfaces (e.g. C-Gate, OCP), etc.

There is a C-Bus Analogue Output unit that can provide a 0-10V output signal for these kinds of devices.

 

Hello Newman,
What I mean is to have alternatives to the propietary and very expensive C-bus hardware.

So, if the Industry would develope say, a wal-mounted light-switch module, that can accept standard Profibus, DeviceNET, CANopen or even ASi or MODbus, without the need for ANY gateways, it would be great.

Yes, I know I can use my OPC Client to access C-bus via C-bus OPC server, I can even implement OPC master on my side too and bridge via Matrikon Tunneler to C-bus OPC server......my point is you pay a significant amount for that specific hardware/software solution.

So, we need industry-supported intelligent end devices, and, I guess this will come, it's not a question of if, but when.

I just thought any one here had ideas of a timeframe.

The main idea is that, having these "end" devices, or call it final control elements if you want, supporting standard industrial protocols, especially fieldbus protocols, we have access to not just the limited availabe amount hardware supporting C-bus, but things like Endress&Hauser smart transmitters eg, Profibus PA flowmeters, temperature and pressure transducers, Metso ND9000 smart positioners, and you can really automate everything from your swimming pool to your stove from a simple, standard interface.

Imagine setting your swimming-pool level, leave it in closed-loop control, and it's level will be maintained, having a simple on/off valve on the water mains, and level being fed back to the controller via a simple, cheap level transmitter, whether it be a float, conductive or differential pressure type.....

No need to jump through a miriad of gateways and protocols to realise your end goal.

I cannot understand why home-automation needs to reinvent the wheel, if we have high-speed, cheap industrial fieldbus protocols out there - because, what you are trying to achieve, is simply controlling IO - whether it being discreet or analog, VSD/VFD's, reading tacho inputs, et al....all we need is the simple light-switches, ceiling fans, and output 240V/110V plugs, et al.

I hope I am not confusing the situation.....

I can most likely meet with some of my Industrial Schneider Colleagues, we deal with them from time to time on Profibus devices.

Am I correct in saying Clipsal was bought out by Schneider? We might then anyway see a big improvement in supported devices (and hopefully industrial protocols).

@ Daniel: No worries Mate, networks and Cat5/E/6/zoom-zoom cables are such an art anyway, I sometimes have these freudian slips too

 

You're off topic. The poor guy that started this thread was looking for some introductory information on C-Bus. If you want to voice your opinions about where the home automation industry should go, you're welcome to do so... but please do it in it's own thread.

Clipsal was acquired by Schneider Electric in December 2003.

All future posts in this thread back on topic, please.

 

Getting back OT, can I ask what you mean by one wall mounted controller? What does it look like or what does it say on it?

The reason I ask is one good thing about C-bus is there is actually no central controller*. All the inteligence is distributed to the devices on the network, rather than going through a controller. So if you press a button on a switch to turn on a light, the switch will send the message to the network and then the relay/dimmer controlling the light will see the message and turn on the light. So just curious as to what the box is you think is a controller.

* disclaimer before anyone jumps on me, there are some units that may appear to be a central controller such as the PAC, touchscreens, scene controller, or even an old box called Home Minder. Whilst these do offer "central control", they are in reality just input units that can be used to run some more complex procedures etc.