Question about retrofit

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by halooch, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. halooch

    halooch

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    Newbee question here I'm afraid.

    I've just purchased a new single story brick seventies suburban in Sydney. I have read about a thousand different forums/blogs/threads about c-bus and home automation. There are so many conflicting views and advise I thought I would try posting a question on the exact thing I am trying to achieve.

    I would like to control lighting, heating, security, power management, audio video, blinds etc.

    I have read advise about retrofitting v wireless. As far as I can tell if I just want to control lighting then wireless is a good option, but given I want power management (ability to monitor power usage of everything in house). And want to put Ethernet in each room for internet and audio video then I am thinking wired is the better way to go.

    I don't have the funds to retrofit the full house, so my plan is doing a room or two at a time. Let's say the master bedroom and on-suit, and one of the spare bedrooms. Rewiring those rooms and installing c-bus. Then over time adding more rooms to the install. I will already be doing some new wiring in these rooms as I renovate each room anyway.

    Is there any major issue with this type of install?
    Am I right in thinking wireless is only really good for controlling lighting, or can it in fact be used for power management of wall sockets, motion sensors, cctv etc?
    Will any c-bus engineer be interested in this kind of instillation?
    Any advise about this kind of install to make things run smoother in the long run?

    Thanks for any advise!
     
    halooch, Nov 23, 2011
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  2. halooch

    ashleigh Moderator

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    C-Bus wireless will do your basic retrofit lighting control.

    Beyond that you need wired.

    If you want to put ethernet in then you are up for pulling wires anyhow.

    Now... you say brick. Is this brick outside / brick veneer? Or solid brick including brick internal walls?

    Because it makes a big difference to difficulty and mess. Pulling cables through internal stud / frame walls is messy but very do-able, and relatively quick and easy. With a bit of know-how you can do it yourself and just get it checked by a data cabler after which will save some $.

    But if its solid brick throughout, then you are up for chasing out plaster. This again all possible, you can do it yourself, but it is VERY messy, much more time consuming, and pretty painful. If you are doing this, then put as much extra wiring in as you can while you are doing anything. For example, just getting an ethernet socket in is a pain but if you are doing that, run your C-Bus cable at the same time and / or share the same channels you chop out. Once you bog up all the holes you WONT want to do that all again.

    Finally - wireless everything is the so-called cure to all these evils. My jaundiced experience, even with WiFi is that you just can't beat a solid cable connection. (Or putting it more crudely - wireless works for browsing the web. For everythimg else, it sucks big time.)
     
    ashleigh, Nov 23, 2011
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  3. halooch

    halooch

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    Ashleigh thanks for the reply, a couple of point of clarification.

    Brick = brick outer but stud walls internal

    Given I need an electrician to take out the current wiring to the switches I plan on getting them to do it all. I'm a great believer in everyone is a master in one thing. I'm good at computers, not DIY :)

    A generic comment on home automation and I know this is a discussion in it's own right. But why can't it all be IP based. Wifi is now cheap and reliable for small amounts of data. Put a wifi card in each component, sensor/blinds/wall socket/switch, give each device an IP address or even better use DHCP and it would be so easy to control. Give one or all devices external IP's and you can control everything through any net enabled device from anywhere in the world. But as I said that's a different conversation :)
     
    halooch, Nov 23, 2011
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  4. halooch

    tobex

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    Wireless is good for things which run on batteries. WiFi and bluetooth are good examples of what can service a phone or laptop.

    If it draws power through a cable... its wired. Therefore an extra wire or two is just part of the wired design.

    When I retrofitted CBus to my parental home I ran the cables in two great bundles (left side, right side) in the driveway for cutting and bundling - than taped into a trunk line with colour coded "break points" where the lines ran out from the main bundle (think of a tree) [black tape was a bundle, green tape was a place where a cable was seperated from the bundle and red tape was a cable that ran into the cavity for a power point]. In that nerve bundle were lighting and power point cables. But if I will do it today it will also have air conditioning cables in that same bundle. In the centre of the house I ran the TV coax, Ethernet and Clipsal Pink Cat5. The internal walls had brass tubes in the walls just perfect for Cat5. The old faceplates fitted CBus perfectly. My design was built around a sub-board panel inside the house. The meter box now has a main switch and earth and nothing else apart from council fuses.

    In your case I would wager that you will transition from a fuses under the front meter to a sub-board probably some place in the kitchen or laundry. Doing it in stages is a bit like going to the dentist for a little drilling and cutting at a time or just pulling the tooth a little. It wont save you much money at all and it will make it very painful for a long time.

    If you want to save mountains of money. I recommend that you scan auction websites in late november while so many installers are dumping spare stock so that they can spend it on nicer toys for xmas. What normally sells for $1000 can be as little as $90 if its used and not in demand.

    If you plan to do your house in halves then maybe you will win. That is just my opinion. Dont assume I am correct or giving the only way possible. Hoard the parts ... then install.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2011
    tobex, Nov 23, 2011
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  5. halooch

    ashleigh Moderator

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    Why can't it be IP or WiFi?

    Well... when it comes right down to it - some of the newer stuff is.

    But (always a but)... WiFi is BIG. The radios are (still) physically large and gobble lots of power. Its complex to set up (plug and play is close but unless you understand IP addressing and channels and regulations and antenna placement - its a pain). There are a lot of cases where wireless just won't work - think commercial building plant rooms down in the basement of a reinforced concrete building where there is no mobile access due to all the reo acting as screening. And so on.

    And IP wired - ethernet - brings another whole separate can of worms. Over the years a number of PI based automation systems have been tried, none that I know has been a commercial success. There are a number of reasons for that - again - getting power into the device is painful. Power over IP is possible but its 48V (think telephony), you need power injectors, using the power is ugly, you need big transformers for ethernet line isolation. Oh... and it adds to the manufacture cost.

    All IP and WiFi solutions COST a lot more to make than wired C-Bus does. Chipsets move on frequently (its a fast turn consumer / commodity market) so you are also at the mercy of constant redesign, which hurtz big time where you are making about 250 cat numbers.

    And did I mention that C-Bus is topology-free, IP needs a switch / bridge / hub and lots of wiring back to a central place.

    I could go on. Maybe one day things will go that way, but topology free low speed comms systems have their place. And doubly so when you get out of residential and into commercial buildings.
     
    ashleigh, Nov 23, 2011
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  6. halooch

    halooch

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    Tobex, I'm interested in your comment "scan auction websites in late november". Not sure if the forum rules allow us to mention other sites but if we are allowed are you talking ebay or other specialized auction sites?
     
    halooch, Nov 26, 2011
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  7. halooch

    tobex

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    I cant use this forum to promote other websites unless it is a product everyone here will use or want to use. I have mentioned some high-end products in the past and a few solutions for remotely software controlling a node over the internet. But thats about it.

    Im pretty sure you will find it.
     
    tobex, Nov 26, 2011
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