Regulating free accessible c-bus software on the net

Hey all...

Im going to throw this out there for thought... We're an intergration company in Queenland and have attended all Clipsal's training courses with great benefits, and we still see people (electricians and other so called trained installers out there) with no training, hacking away at jobs, with no idea of the programming complexities that exsist. They leave the job unfinished, with an unhappy customer but with the money in there back pocket... and no return after sales care. The biggest damage here is done to the product C-bus.

Why... instead of giving total access to software for poeple with no experience, they (clipsal) could give out access passwords to different levels of software which meet the level of training u'v done? Its not hard guys!!

Without the free access to the software on the net, it would stop the fly by nighters and more importantly, the client would receive a job installed and programmed by a professional... which is what we all are here...

Other lighting control companys play by these rules and restrict the level of access to software..

Think about it guys and girls

black jellybean

 

Black Jellybean,

I have just finished a reasonably large house using CBUS. I got my electrician to install all of the elements and then I programmed it myself. It was not difficult at all and I quite liked being able to set it up myself and more importantly change it when I desire. I see no need for a professional setup and I for one quite like the fact that you don't need an electrician to set it up.


Glen

 

Doesnt making the cbus gear avaliable to anyone also cause the problem. If Cbus could only be purchased by improved installers etc, it wouldn't matter what software people could get hold of.

But in Clipsals defence, if a home owner, builder etc wants to employ someone to do a job, and does not check their qualifications to do that job, is that really clipsals fault? Clipsal run training, have AI, SI certification etc. to help client (home owners, builders etc) employee people who are of an approved standard (and also back them up).

 

Hi GlenF

I guess like me Blackbean has seen several bad installs (and not just on the programming side). And it gets very had to convince people that the product is a great product once they have had a bad experience.

I understand from the clients side that its great that you have the flexablilty to program it yourself (and I agree with you on that) . But like Black Bean I think its wrong that someone can sell a service when they are not cabable of performing that service.

- I can see a line of x panel beaters advertising plastice surgery services - clients with flat faces , saying well he said he could reshape my nose , for half the price of that flashy surgoen to the stars , I didnt think to ask for qualifications and references.

 

There are shoddy fly by night people in all aspects of the building industry.

If you are as good as you (indirectly) claim to be, then let your buisness stand on your reputation and not by denying others and forcing people to use your company.

End users make decisions regarding who they are going to employ to do a particular job, and this is no different. Promote yourself, point out why you do a good job, and let the hacks shoot themselves in the foot.

In my experience an positive word of mouth recommendation from a satisfied customer is worth more than any other advertising you could do.

Cheers

Rohan

 

Free access

rhamer,

You are spot on. If the customer does not see the value in dealing with a company that has the expertise and reputation to undertake their project, then they are to blame. As a manufacturer, it is up to Clipsal to push as much of their product into the market as possible.
Perhaps rather than limiting access to software and hardware, Clipsal and associated companies concentrate some of their marketing dollars into promoting the use of AI and SI installation companies.
After all, I'm sure many on this forum have made a buck or two fixing up someone elses poor installation / programming practices.

 

Free Access

I think it would be insane for Clipsal to restrict access to its software. While I am sure it would benefit the custom installers to have a closed shop for software (like Crestron do) it would just mean the average punter (like) me turning away from it. I make no end of small adjustements to our home system e.g keeping a light on a little longer, dimming this, ramping that. Without the software I would have to call in an 'integrator' at ?40 an hour. I have also recomended CBUS to any number of people - that would stop for sure.

In summary Forget it !

Chris

 

I agree with phcjpp and GlenF, since the "open-ness" of C-Bus is one of it's very best features. Since day 1 that was the big selling feature that C-Bus had over all the opposition, and that policy is unlikely to ever be changed. Thus for owners who like to tweak and tinker it's a fantastic choice, perhaps one of the only choices !

HOWEVER... the *average* person who buys a house full of C-Bus has a pile of money but no time or inclination to do it themselves. They pay an installer/integrator to do the implimentation and programming of C-Bus.

And unfortunately the results are very very often completely and utterly disasterous. Like darrenblake inferred, I could have built a very nice business (and many here already have done so) just going around and fixing up all the crap implimentations of C-Bus in peoples' houses. It's an almost unlimited market, and a growing market too

And Commercial projects are even WORSE ! From what I've seen, almost every single C-Bus install in commercial premises has never had a service call - nothing has been done since the day they were installed. This week I received an inquiry to program a C-Bus installation that was installed in a commercial office 4 years ago. A fairly full-on project with daylight sensing, 0-10V dimming ballasts, etc. It has NEVER BEEN COMMISSIONED... the client is using a circuit breaker to turn the lights on and off !
- Would anyone here like to own up to installing that one?

You can guess how many people the owner and tenants of that building have told that "C-Bus is absolute crap". One dissatisfied client will tell MORE people about their issue than a satisfied one (this is why customer serveice is SO important). Yet the problem I described above has nothing to do with Clipsal or CIS.

So, I absolutely agree with darrenblake - I reckon that CIS needs to spend a LOT MORE money on making end-users (the ultimate clients) understand that they should insist on getting an installer/integrator who can give them value, and not to accept the lowest price !

Because I know from my own experience that the majority of the cost in a decent C-Bus installation is in the planning and the programing (and numerous re-programming calls to tweak the results). But as we all know, clients want everything cheap cheap cheap, coz they just can't help themselves. There's not much room to move on the supply of the equipment, so the programming is the thing that inevitably gets compromised when the client is screwing on price !

Oh well, at least with C-Bus any one of us here can walk into one of those botched up projects at repair it at a price. I dunno what a client could do if some other brand of system was used ... would they have to call back the original installer, who had stuffed it up in the first place ?

 

I see Clipsal is staying out of this thread.

I agree with you.

Besides the fact that Clipsal is an amazing product, there is a mixture of people who are shaping and influencing the current and next generation CBUS. This is a mixture of installers, installers using CBUS at their own homes and home owners who are enthusiastic about home-automation. This combination is also what makes up this forum as well. This is healthy for the product and Clipsal, as bugs are reported quicker, and because suggestions and ideas have an open forum, Clipsal can pick and choose which features makes financial and technical sense.

This has proved fruitful and in my opinion should not be changed because of other people’s action. Restricting software would not help the product.


The fact is people buy expensive cars and give them to backyard mechanics to save money, this applies to almost everything else in life, and home automation is not an exception.

 

Well said - that is a fantastic analogy !

Reminds me of the people who want LV downlights under $10 because they saw them that price at the local lighting shop. I always ask them about the room they will be installing them, and they are usually SO proud to boast that they are spending $1000 per metre for the granite benchtops, $400 / m? on the floor tiles, $8000 for the Meile stove, etc, etc...

 

Hi Guys

I think you miss understood, I was saying if you restrict the distribution software, then you should also restrictict the distribution of hardware. I wasnt saying that I think either should be restricted.

It just a shame that cbus gets a bad name due to poor installs. I guess as said above its up to us and clipsal to show the pospective clients that CBUS is a GREAT product.

 

Unfortunately poor installation can be provided by "trained" programmer. C-Bus is so flexiable that it takes not only basic knowledge, but also time, experience, creative thinking, and most important of all, heart. A programmer can get a basic set-up running and do their job within payable hours. But jobs normally take ages to finish if your client want something different. If a programmer does not want to spend extra hours thinking about how to do those different set-up, C-Bus could become simple switches and dimmers. If a programmer tried to do a lot without enough time to test it on site, there are likely a lot of bugs. If there are always something new to try, your client may never know how to operate. Looking back at set up done by others or ourselves over the years, there are always bad programming for many reasons. Experience tells you what to do and what not to do.

So it is not a matter of free download programs or not, it is a matter of how many Good programmers are around. We used to pay to get the installation software, and it didn't make programmer better. C-Bus is relatively rare, but it makes you the experienced programmer more special.

 

Hi JohnC, You are on the money when you say:

... which is why some people would like to keep the bad apples out. While it is far from me to attack you, I disagree with your statement that it has nothing to do with Clipsal or CIS. Whoever makes the policies is also responsible for the outcome. If you allow anyone to purchase your high-end specialised product, without any restrictions then you also need to accept that a lot of bad publicity is about. How that ties in with growing a product is beyond me.

Nonetheless, this thread is very interesting and close to the heart of the people who, like Wanricky, seem to take their profession seriously. This is not to say that many others who have commented on this thread do not, but due to the fact that dis-satisfied customers talk much more than satisfied ones, it stands to reason that the totally open approach tends to cause more damage than good. I have come across enough prospective clients who are of the opinion that C-Bus is no good, just because they heard from unhappy customers, or about bad installations. Particularly the opposition milks the fact that "C-Bus doesn't work". This is simply because people who are in it for the quick buck due to the relatively expensive product, deliver absolutely shoddy results, and if the manufacturers' sole objective is to move boxes, then the result cannot be all that wonderful in the long run.
If I was a prospective C-Bus customer and read about a flourishing business sector based on condoned crappy design and workmanship with no after sales service, for which I would have to fork more good bucks after a load of bad ones, I would first Puke, and then look for something else!
To end off I agree fully with the fact that word of mouth is the very best advertising, but I find it a pity that a good product must be butchered by a bunch of short-sighted so-called installers.

 

As someone who started off as an electrical fitter apprentice in the 70's but moved over the years into more industrial, R&D and "technology" areas, I can say from experience that there is a HUGE support base for truly open-source systems, and a large and increasing resistance to closed-shop products.

When building my new home, I wanted to include so many of the automation, control, monitoring and integration concepts I'd built "from the ground up" in my old home. Cbus was one of several options. In the end, I chose it because it had a reasonable number of people supporting it and I had been able to find enough information on its internals to satisfy myself that I could probably "trick it up" enough to overcome some of its serious limitations. Being able to "do it myself" was a huge consideration - if I couldn't have, it simply wouldn't have been considered for the job.

That all said, I'm NOT a licensed electrician (and all that stuff was done by someone who was, but was happy to work with me to achieve what I wanted).

I'm NOT a tested, accredited, approved, licensed, ticketed, "clipsal" dude, although I've been programming PLCs (some up to 12,000 I/O) for 20 years.

As a result of what I have done here, I have had lots of enquiries from other professionals in *MY* circles, asking about various things c-bus. Several have gone ahead and used c-bus where they were ready to discount it "out of hand".

OK, I'm probably not "mr average" making a botch job of a couple of switches and a 12-channel relay, and I accept that there will be some degree of harm done to the industry and the product by shonky operators charging consumers for crap work. Restricting the product to select individuals only, and preventing anyone apart from those "in the club" being able to DO anything with it will (I'm quit sure) do even more harm. (Oh, unless clipsal and their installers want to get the "elitist, proprietry system" tag they poo-hoo others for... but then, you'd be able to charge $5000 for a relay, and $350/Hr to program the 4 you sell each year!)

You can't close the door after the horse has bolted. If you did, how long do you think it would be before some enterprising person goes to china and has a "compatible" product belted out at 10% of the price, without all the testing and design done by clipsal (or perhaps simply copying their product)? Some dead-simple point-and-click software that any idiot can use with templates for typical installations?

It's happened with all sorts of other products, including ones "they" said would never happen. (Remember how insanely expensive PABX systems were and how expensive it was to have (one of the two people in town who know how to program them) any changes made? Then out came real phone systems with POTS and ISDN inputs, enough extensions for a typical office, simple software even a secretary could drive, and all for under a grand!
And now, with Asterisk, any old discarded PC can be the "PABX" controller for hundreds of extensions, doing free calls worldwide, costs you nothing for the software and there are thousands of websites with all the "HowTo" details and hundreds of thousands of users willing to lend a hand for free.

Don't get me wrong. Cbus is a good product, and can do a lot of stuff.
But it has a lot of serious limitations in functionality, or functionality that can only be added by even more expensive bits and complex coding. The price is still well out of the reach of "mass-market" consumers. And for some parts of the market, I'm seeing the (quite) technically-savvy people simply going back to PLCs because they're easier to get, half the price, more flexible and they already have the skills to program and integrate into other systems.

 

Open v closed

Like most things in life, it's all a question of balance.

As an end user I agree with others that have said their favourite thing about C-Bus is the ability to play and tweak it endlessly. My house, my toy! But seriously, lifestyles change, the kids grow up, and being able to tweak the setup to meet our needs is the no 1 feature I wanted. I would otherwise have a Lutron System where I suspect the software may be a little more powerful, but it is not open.

But I would have been lunatic to trust the installation to anyone other than an accredited Clipsal Integration person since I have Star Server, C-Bus, Security, Cat 6 Ethernet hubbing, etc all fully integrated in a $40K+ setup. The knowledge that I can always revert to an initial set up that worked fine gives me the confidence to try out other things.