Repost of an old chesnut for the Marketing Boys

I guess that is why techs should keep out of Marketing

PSC, Seems my dream of Market Domination doesn't mesh well with the Instant Gratification you desire. I will go heave if it is not automation, it is also a system that can be built on to start with, and it is an opportunity to upgrade down the track.

X10 (or derivatives thereof) is dead, wow that is a big call.

When 14,999,999 customers in California dismiss CBUS because it is perceived as too expensive to dabble with. (say a relay and 1 key switches) I will let you deal with the one who wanted CBUS, he was a pain in the a$$ anyway.

Darren, thanks for the offer at $1065 for the hardware but Mr Joe Average building his new home on the Mortgage belt would rather pay $50 for 12 switches and close you out of any opportunity to ever offer, service or improve the cbus in his home. Try to show him how to use toolkit and you lost him at "hello". As for the "handful" in your company that can program CBUS, does that not tell you anything about closed shops and demand?

BSS, your idea has some merit, that is why HPM and Clipsal offer packs in their home product range. Sadly you made it too hard to install and missed out on all the jobs you quoted. Now, if you offered a plug in loom you might be onto something.

I do believe that Ashley and I actually agree not differ because I dont believe an entry level pack will suit everyone but then the 80/20 rule would apply and It would sell its butt off.

As for Bunnings, well they do sell clipsal, along with Arlec, HPM etc, but then most punters really are scared of our mate Zappy and don't buy it. For those that do, we don't wanna know about it!

How about a simple question that seeks a simple answer;

If you as an integrator or electrician could show the local builder that for say $250 more the average project home could be sold as including "CBUS Home Automation" how many do you think you could sell? But then isn't one of the sales pitches that the product is quicker and easier to install? Lets aim for $0 more and CBUS becomes as ubiquitous as Microsoft. So how many more could you sell?

 

First of all, BSS you are too funny

Secondly, Darren - you and I have missed a hell of a lot of points here. I know you are only new to the industry and you clearly have no idea what you are talking about

So who's responsibility is this? Clipsal's? Developers? Builders? Integrators?

Clipsal have recently invested a lot of money in a brand new display / costing centre at Rouse Hill N.S.W. Clipsal staff are on hand to correctly explain the benefits and features of the Cbus system. If the staff do their job correctly people will hopefully leave the complex realising the value for money the system offers and not "that's a very expensive light switch".

Just so you don't miss my point - lowering production costs can and will reduce product costs.

I just hope they can spell better than you... E X P E R I E N C E

It was actually me that GAVE the example. Why can't you have both? It's called 'economics'.

Lastly has no 'e'. Anyway, there would be many products that CIS has developed at a loss. I'm sure that they have probably lost a lot of money on the CBTI, sure maybe half the integrators in Australia purchased one to play with but other than that I don't believe that they have sold too many...

Obviously if CIS and integrators see an opportunity for a new product AND everyone can make money out of it - they'll build it. But sometimes the product takes longer to develop, manufacture etc; only to find that the market does not take to it as expected.

What about the new Multi-Room Audio system, it was a year over due. How much do you think that year cost Clipsal? Plenty! If you compare the product with other multi-room audio systems it is well priced in the market.

So based on your theory - Clipsal should increase the price of the product to factor in the year lost, what do you think? Double it? And then after increasing the price to try and recoup the money lost they probably wouldn't sell any. Or, they could leave the product at a price that is competitive in the market and focus on selling as many units as possible. How many extra units do you think they need to sell now to make up for the year lost - HEAPS!

I know this might comes as a shock, but Clipsal are in the business of making money...

Clipsal are a R&D + manufacturing company, they are constantly developing new products and improving the old.

Do you really think that Clipsal look at each and every product and calculate -

How much R&D went into THAT product?
How many units they have sold?
Maybe they should factor in the individual product advertising costs?
What about individual product support costs?

And then adjust the price accordingly? At the end of the day the Cbus product family has to be profitable - some products more than others. The over-all R&D, support, manufacturing, packaging and advertising costs are looked at as a whole. They can only charge what the market will bare, and as the product has only continued to grown and increase its market share not only here but around the world; I tend to believe that they know what they are doing.

I totally agree with Darren, this is another product that entered the market 1 year late. It will probably be long while before Clipsal starts to make money out of this little puppy. Quite often it's the older more established products that tend to subsidise new advances in technology that is coming out of the CIS stable.

We all hear what you're saying - but your analogy does not cut it in this case, as I stated before Clipsal is a R&D company dealing with cutting edge technology. Maybe if Clipsal stop spending money on the development / improvement of their hardware and software they could reduce the cost of all existing products. The only problem is that well spent money is the reason why the product is as advanced as it is.

Suggestion - I'm sure you are well trained and experienced in your field, but maybe you should leave the marketing and economics to someone else

Anyway, I have wasted far too much time trying to explain how things work in the world of CIS only to constantly miss your point. Hopefully you haven't missed any of mine.

BTW, some words to work on -

lightling
exisited
experianced
lastley
complety
develpment
ofshore
acount
soultion
orginal
benifit
widly

 

It might be a big call, but it's true... You didn't seem to answer any of my questions re X10, any reason?

Instant gratification I desire? I only have to look in the mirror to get that

Ok, let's revisit this thread in 2 years from today and we see who is right and who is wrong.

This is why Clipsal developed the push to learn technology.

I know you should never answer a question with a question but hey; we have crossed every other line

Q: Why are plasma TV's (panels) more expensive than CRT TV's???

A: It's called technology. And what is the hottest selling item at the moment (besides iPods)? Plasma and LCD TV's, they might be upto 10 x the price of CRT's but people still see the value / benefits in the product.

Cbus is a 'technology' product, standard electrical wiring is not.

 

need to re company re think my strategy

I had to go back to the beginning of this thead a re read it all as i have now become a little confused. What have I now learnt.

Ashley W and Phoneman should go into business together designing, manufacturing, marketing and then selling entry level X-Ten at a loss here in Australia because the Americans love it and hate C-Bus. Then every new home built would then upgrade and add to the original system in their new home, but not using the services of an overpriced and over quallified integrator. The money saved here would allow them to upgrade their entry level BMW to a top of the range BMW.
You would get plenty of exercise as you still have to go around and turn off all of the normally wired switches as only the first 12 lighting circuits are covered by your special deal.
As for your only 1 client that is a pain in the A!!!, be happy because nearly everyone of my clients are pains in the !!!! that demand service 7 days a week and 24 hours a day and I can assure you that it doesn't matter which system you install, they will allways still be Pain in the A!!!!!.
I hope you will both send me out a membership application to join your club " Club X-Ten" as I still have a lot to learn in life, as I don't have even an entry level BMW in my garage and I am sure that if I rang BMWnow and asked them to sell me an entry level car at cost or $250 above cost or below cost the CEO would be laughing all day.
Lets get real. If they can't afford c-bus then don't buy it. Everybody would like to purchase it cheaper if it was sold cheaper. If X-Ten is cheaper and better then good luck to them as they are going to need it.
Services cost money. Getting the job done right needs time and experience and sometimes a little luck if we are honest. This costs money. Integrators do not make big money. If you are going to do a job then do it right and sell it right.
PS going to a job to put in a power point on a Sunday and purchaseing from Bunning shows a lack of ability to think ahead. Surely you could of purchased the power point on a weekday prior to going to the job. A bit like have to design the system before you can quote it, not I have a box full of bits and now where can I put them.

 

PSC I am a little upset that you need to resort to personal attacks, especially on my spelling. I have no problem with you making comment on my thoughts about this topic but it is not called for to start making comment about my spelling. It has nothing at all to do with this subject and unfortunately it only highlights one of the points that I have been making which is this world of integration is full of arrogant people full of themselves. So please let’s just stick to the facts and not personal slights. Oh for your benefit I have resorted to using Microsoft and a spell checker in this post, just to keep you happy.

You know in every post I’ve made I have acknowledged that the people who are specialists in automation and integration are experienced and worth every dollar they charge. Also at no point have I brought into dispute the knowledge and experience of yourself, Darren or anyone else, so where does this comment come from?

If you opened your eyes a little you would see that I and Phoneman have an equally valid interest and our comments as people who are clearly supporters of C-bus are just as valid as any professional. Any professional that is too arrogant to not to listen to view points from others within an industry are doing themselves a major disfavour.

In one of my posts I did make an attack on sorts about integrators and I will repeat and explain it. Reading the threads here you would think that C-bus is a product that should only be left to specialised integrators, and indeed PCS your comments above seem to reflect that. But the reality is that C-bus can be as simple or as complex as you like. The entry level stuff that is being discussed in THIS THREAD is the simple stuff. I have no doubt that because of your high levels of training and industry experience that you price yourself accordingly and quite rightly so. (That’s the same with the analogy that I gave with my work’s Cisco gurus). No problem there. But at the low end of the market if you are involved in that then you would either be charging the customer more that the value you put it, or you would be undercharging yourself, either way is wrong. My comment is why not leave the low end of the market to others to develop and leave the high end that requires your level of experience and training to specialised integrators such as yourselves and price that accordingly? Is it really that big a deal? My personal thoughts are you would be against that because anyone knows that if someone gets a foot hold then their skills and experience will increase and could be future competitors, but I do hope all professional integrators are above that.

So Clipsal have one place in NSW, WOW!!! What about the multitude of display villages? What do they have in there? Probably not much. Why not work with builders and developers to showcase the product more. When I had my house built 5 years ago my builder had no idea what I was talking about when I told him I was going to install C-bus and required his sparkie to wire the 240v side up. The Sparkie was mortified too as he was a HPM man through and through but luckily the Sparkie offset his lower costs by not having to wire the whole house in the traditional way into waiving the charges for fitting my down lights (which would normally be $50 each) and the extra power points. Even though what I had is a simple system (most of the bells and whistles in my system come from Minder and not C-bus) he was a convert of sorts when he saw it finished. He used my house as a display home during the last few week of construction and he had a few people enquire specifically about the C-bus. He actually put them onto me and I inturn put them onto CIS. I hope a few sales were gained, but I fear not though..

In Canberra, where I live if you go to L&H at Fyshwick they have a C-bus display. It’s been there a while and is gathering dust. It doesn’t work and indeed I think the components are cardboard anyway, well the touch screen anyway. The best C-bus display in Canberra is Project Lighting in Belconnen, but that is because the owner is a C-bus convert and I think he can see the benefit in marketing C-bus to further sell his lighting products. It’s a good display because it actually works. Why not have something like that in a real home to get customer interest?

But to answer the question it is the responsibility of everyone in the industry to market the product. I would say it is up to the reps to sell the product more to the builders, and not to the wholesalers. It would be then up to the display homes and builders to factor C-bus into their product sells and then hand it over to the sparkies they employ, for the simple jobs and the specialist integrators for the larger and more complex jobs. It works for me, maybe it’s too simplistic and cuts out the integrator too much!

Sigh!!! I wish I could be perfect, but alas I am human!!

Sorry thought it was Darren, but yep it is an example of economics but IMO not a good one. With any product that needs to be developed you can recoup the costs by marketing them as exclusive products and selling say 10,000 at $3000 each or you could market them as volume products and sell 30,000 at $1500. Both ways are right and in fact if you re-read any of my comments you would see that I have no problems with the cost of the high level products, my issue and the whole point of this thread is entry level.

My personal thoughts are market the C-bus basics as volume products and price accordingly and market the specialised products (like C-touch, Saturn DLT) as the exclusive products. As it stands it seems that C-bus is only being marketed as an exclusive product, which may be effective but it isn’t to say it cannot be marketed more widely and priced as such. Clipsal doesn’t have to loose money, in fact if done properly it may well increase the volumes on the premium products. Please explain why it cannot be done this way?

I will go backwards with this one. Again re-read what I have said in previous posts. At no point did I ever say Clipsal were a charity. Yes they are in it to make money and why not. There are many different ways to do it too.

In regards to their products I admitted in the last post that there would be products that would be developed at a loss. That’s the real world, but the example you gave it would make sense that if there was an over run of time and cost that at some point it would need to be recovered. There are many ways to do that, adding the price up front is one way, but so too is altering the costs models to recover the development costs over a longer period of time and over a far greater number of units. What is correct is really up to Clipsal. If they put the costs up front then they may get fewer sales. If they put I over a larger product volume then they run the risk of never selling and making a loss. You’re right too they could also increase the price of other products, or not low the costs of products that have reached development break even, but it is all a fine balance.

Hmm Clipsal are a business that is there to make money you said that. They are a company that invests a lot of money into R&D but to say they are a R&D company is stretching the truth a little. You were the one who made it clear they “are in the business of making money...” and any true R&D company doesn’t make money. I think they do a bloody good job at what they do and that they have great products. That’s why C-bus is in my house. But I think you are being a tad naive, especially for someone with your level of experience to just believe the Clipsal marketing spin of being an R&D company. As I said they need R&D to enable them to make and sell new products but that doesn’t make them an R&D company per se.

Yes, they would be mad not to. That is exactly how a business would work out their costs, are you saying that when you come up with the price for your services you don’t do exactly the same thing. I mean for you would have to factor your training costs and the costs of any test beds you develop to further increase your skill and knowledge. No doubt you do a certain level of advertising and factor in on-going support of your clients. The volume and complexities of the systems you design and install would also be a major factor. If you didn’t the your not a good business person.

There would be a few more criteria that should be included, the most important being a profit margin, after all Clipsal are rightly so there to make money. Also as you said and I agreed there may be some products that are priced at a loss but they would only be products that would enable other products to sell to offset the loss. One change though is they would base it on how many they want to sell to recover costs rather than how many they have sold. Future rather than the past, indeed for a new product there isn’t a past. The things such as advertising and product support are vital components that cannot be over looked.

Getting back to this thread we have been talking about products that should have more than covered their initial development costs such as the standard range of input devices and relay/dimmer units. If they haven’t recovered their development costs then C-bus must be in serious trouble. In that case the pricing model should be changed to reflect the costs, but no if you look at the prices over the past 5 years the costs of the basic stuff has gone up by my estimations by about 50%. One increase was when C-bus2 came in which to an extent I can understand. It’s not to say CIS needs to run at a loss on them, but to reflect the actual costs more. Also refer to one of the earlier statements products like this if you turn them into volume products by making them cheaper and more widely accepted then you may well make more money on these items and lead to greater sales on the products you are trying to recover costs on, or items that naturally have a higher profit margin.

On a different but related subject can anyone explain the benefit of learn mode in C-bus2 products? All I can see is it was an attempt to make the product appeal more to the low end of the market, the very market that we are talking about but really does anyone here actually use it? After all it can only do the basic level stuff which reading what these professionals say that isn’t what C-bus is all about. Cynical I know but a valid question I think. I can understand learn mode more in the wireless gear though, but not in the old wired kit.

Why should they? If a product is developed it should be developed as a standalone product, the only exception being devices which are needed to further sell other devices. The PC interface might be one such example, same too with power supplies. But if Clipsal decide to develop the C-touch then I have no doubt it was and should be a standalone product from a development perspective.

Actually my analogy does cut it. What we asked those companies to do cost them a fortune in R&D costs and these were well and truly, and correctly reflected in their price. The good thing is on the second round the original company realised they only had a minor change to make and the price on their new equipment reflected this. BTW we are not talking small costs items here, we are talking items that originally cost $15,000 each, and we ordered around 1500 over 4 years. For the new products as they are not a complete replacement for the originals the volumes will be lower and indeed the company quoted different prices based on guaranteed sale levels. The 1-50 price was much higher than the 500+ price, so clearly they pegged the break-even at somewhere around 500 units. The new will cost us are around $8000. The other companies who tendered didn’t have the R&D costs already covered and were quoting +$15,000 prices for the same thing. And BTW their cost use the very same model as above, with the exception of advertising as it is a closed market.

The same applies to any product that CIS would produce.

No haven’t missed any of your points but at least I am not arrogant or ignorant to dismiss them like you have clearly done to Phoneman and myself. As I said I think they highlight perfectly the arrogance that I see as an outside of the integrator industry. It seems to me that if any of the suggestions or comments that we have made about making C-bus more viable in the lower end of the market came to fruition that this would be a potential threat to you with a loss in value of your experience. If you took your head out of your bum and actually so the bigger potential for C-bus you would see that there is a place for the lower end, and indeed that can only help the specialised integrators gain more work and make more profit.

Yes I am well trained in my field and this may come as a surprise but economics and working with R&D companies is a major part of it as we use so many specialised products so I do have more than an inkling of what I am speaking of. Have you ever had to sit through multitudes of technical tender documentation and try and make decisions of value based on products that are very complex to compare? No I didn’t think so. Well I have and that is exactly where I am coming from in my comments here as the exact same principles apply.

As for marketing I am coming from a consumer’s point of view. As a consumer, for a so called professional to dismiss out of hand the concerns and feelings of a customer who is an avid supporter of this particular is disappointing. Sure you wouldn’t get my business as I can do that myself, but I have no doubt my feelings are the same as others out there who would kill to have a good value C-bus system in their home. I’ve had several people come to my place and express interest in C-bus, indeed one friend of mine like what I had so much that he installed it in his home which he had rebuilt after the Canberra bushfires. For him cost wasn’t an issue, but he was the only one, the rest when they heard the cost couldn’t be bothered. So one last question why not allow C-bus to be marketed at the lower level and price it accordingly?

PS. Sorry for the length of this post, clearly it is something I am passionate about, and PCS I hope there are no major spelling mistakes here, no doubt you will find many grammatical errors, but again I am not perfect!!

 

What you talking about BSS? Not once have I ever mentioned X-10. I think that C-bus is a great system that could and should be marketed more widely. What’s the problem with that? But the point Phoneman was making may well be valid but with variation. I doubt X-10 will make a come back (if ever it really was here?) but Clipsal better be careful that some Chinese company isn’t developing a C-bus equivalent now. If they are then when introduced to Australia it may well take over the low end of the market and further up.

Oh the word is thread, not thead, better be careful PCS doesn’t like bad spelling, and he would be mortified if it was someone with just as much experience as he!

Again maybe you should read my posts as not once have I ever said Clipsal should sell their products at a loss, but my the same token if a product has covered it development cost then why not bring the price down and market it wider?

Actually that is exactly how my house is wired; it works fine and does what I need. That being said my C-bus system is there more as an add-on to my Minder system and not vice versa. My decision to buy Minder is what lead me to C-bus. In my case it is 2 4 channel dimmers and 1 4 channel relay, 3 PIR’s and several key units. I would have preferred to wire the remaining 8 lights to C-bus but that is the point, in my case where it started to become un-economic. (Oh the word is qualified, one l, not quallified as you have spelt it). But you know what the original suggestion isn’t that bad, and no you don’t need the services of a specialist integrator (overpriced or otherwise) if done properly an everyday sparkie could do it. But you know what, if what the client wants is to add is a complex integration system then there may well be a market for the specialist integrator. So what is the underlying issue with that?

What are you on about? Open your eyes a little!! (the word is always and not always!)

Yep services cost money but different services have different costs and different experience and skill sets have different costs too. The cost for a basic C-bus job shouldn’t be the same for a complex integration job. And no I am not talking specifically about on an hour basis here, I am talking base hourly rate based on skills and task complexity. I gave the example of where I work employing a Cisco guru. For the installation jobs we employ people (such as me) who have the knowledge and experience to do the install jobs, including the basic Cisco stuff and we get paid a level that reflects that that skill/experience set. We pay one Cisco guru to sit there and do the high level work. To get him to do our job would be a waste of money, the price he would have to charge would not be worth it, likewise by getting us to do his job would be shear madness as we don’t have the level of knowledge to do his work. In the integrator example I feel that integrators are specialist people like the Cisco CCIE guru. Integrators are specialists and their price should and does reflect that, no problem at all. I am not saying that integrators are charging too much for what they do, nor that they are making millions, but let’s face it if an integrator was to do a basic job they would have to charge the customer much more than it really is worth or charge less than they are worth. Either way it isn’t win/win. It would be like me sending the Cisco guru out into the field to do an install at $100p/h when I could employ someone with the correct skill set, knowledge and experience for say $60p/h. Just because the Cisco guy is a guru worth $100p/h doesn’t mean he can offer $40p/h more value to the install job. So which is better for the client? In C-bus what is better for the client? Someone with the knowledge and skills who are able to do their job well and charge accordingly or a guru who has much more skill and knowledge required who by market forces has to charge a premium rate to recover their costs? I know what I think but as it stands we don’t have many in the lower end of the market to charge for the simple jobs accordingly!

Oh another spelling mistake before PCS picks it up is purchaseing, the real word is purchasing, no e in the word. But FYI the job I had to do I was only asked when I went around for a beer, it was like can you please do this for me today. It was a no brainer, 5 metres of cable and one switch, but I couldn’t buy any Clipsal products at Bunnings and I know Magnet Mart, the second major in Canberra doesn’t sell it either so it was a HPM switch, YUCK. Sometimes you get caught out no matter how much planning you do, guess it was fortunate I had my combos and a red dick in the car. But that being said your comment gives another perfect example about what I have been talking about. Bunnings (with the s, umpteenth mistake) is a business that is there to appeal to a certain market, which I read is 80% consumer, 20% trade. They price their products accordingly which are much higher than equivalent products at a specialist. But they do that because the market, rightly or wrongly has asked for a one stop shop rather than many specialists. Heaven forbid they also asked for this 7 days a week and sometimes late into the evening! But you know this is what the market has asked for and they are willing to pay a slight premium for it. Back to C-bus and this discussion it is clear that with the pricing for the entry level stuff most people are not prepared to pay. It is only the high level, or people who want toys that are willing to pay. So my question is, provide it is not done at a loss why not offer lower prices to get market penetration and hand the lower end of the market over to people who can do the required work at a fair price? Doesn’t seem to hard to me!

 

*yawn*

 

Sorry about that, I was out of line

It was directed at Darren, not you.

We are listening to you and as integrators; Darren and I are offering our opinions and insight into the industry. We just don't agree with you...

That's exactly what we do, our market is high end residential; we don't touch or want the low end stuff. I'm not sure what your Clipsal status is but as integrators we all find our market, it's a big enough fish bowl.

You couldn't be any further from the truth, I always share my knowledge with others around me & have been asked teach others outside of my work environment. You only have to search through my posts on this forum to see the help and advice that I have given. As I explained in an earlier post that the market is only getting bigger, there are always things to learn - there's plenty of room for everyone.

I only have a problem when people do half arsed jobs - designing, installing, commissioning etc which then reflects badly on the product.

Clipsal used to have a display apartment at Zetland, I'm not sure if that's still the case.

In the limited number of display home villages that I have been to some of the homes had Cbus installed & even if they didn't it was still an option. It's up to the Integrators to approach the builders / developers, not Clipsal. I know many an integrator that has tried to work with kit home builders, there is just no margin in it.

BTW, Clipsal actually employ people that get Cbus written into the specification of projects, what more do you want them to do? Supply and install?

All I can suggest Ashley is that you become a Clipsal System Integrator (if you are not already one) and become apart of the CSI council, they make all the decisions on how the marketing dollar is spent.

Can you please enlighten me on what you think is part of the Cbus "basic" range?

Whatever...

You keep referring to this "standard" "basic" range of Cbus products, what are they?

It was designed so people without computers or people who have no Cbus training have a way to program the system. I'm not sure if anyone uses it, but hey it's there. Obviously Toolkit gives you greater flexibility and control.

The market is all yours girlfriend, knock yourself out.

All I have done is try to answer your questions and give you an insight into the industry. You don't agree with what I have to say, that's cool. You?re no threat to me, don't worry.

BTW, I do see a bigger potential for Cbus, I just don't see it in the same market as you.

Once again, I'm not dismissing you it's simply my opinion. Technology cost money and as much as I would like to see the price reduced on a whole I think most products are priced accordingly.

Just one mistake, it's PSC not PCS - but then again you're not perfect

 

Hey Ashley,

I thought correcting spelling mistakes was my job?

Oh, don't forget it's PSC.

And Ross, someone told me you had troubles sleeping at night, hopefully you are now cured Some people will do anything to increase their post numbers

Ashley, thanks for your views - I probably should make this my last post as the letters on the keypad have now officially worn out.

Enjoy the "basic" "standard" "low end" market in Canberra...

 

The point is!

PSC, your indulgence in semantics bores me. Your attempt to express an understanding of both the Keynesian and Marshallian economic theories of supply and demand frustrates me. A learned argument may contend that economies of scale would lead to a decrease in the price of the commodity in question due to the price elasticity in its supply but this is not relevant to my initial post, the preamble of this thread.

I simply rationalise that getting the size 12 in the bloody door is a great start!

Despite your delusions of wisdom, you appear to overlook the point that CBUS is simply a method of delivering an outcome (dim a light) via a particular type of infrastructure (star networking) using a specific hardware protocol (CBUS). If therefore a consumer seeks the same outcome (dim a light) but the type of infrastructure is not in place, the hardware protocol can not reasonably be considered and an alternative will be found (X10 or its derivative).

Your elitist and arrogant views are the very problem Clipsal CBUS may carry to its own demise. Just ask ?Betamax?. And before you launch on yet another tangent, I know VHS too has had its day, but boy what a day and its demise came at the hands of a new technology and not its competitor.

PSC, you tried to suggest I espouse the value of X10 yet my first line was;
?there is no use preaching to the converted about how versatile, useful and awe inspiring the C-Bus and Minder technology can be.?
My exact reference to X10 was ?X10 (or derivatives thereof)? which infers wireless which suggestibly is the future according to GARP, Clipsal Wireless and of course the little known 802.11 protocol that is taking over the world. Do I think that is the way to go? Doh! I may not be an electrician but I do understand what bandwidth congestion is and I don?t want my neighbours toilet turning on my blender!

Granted, you may well view yourself as something of a CBUS Master and I don't believe anyone would dare question your skill with the ?bus? so rather than embark on your vociferous personal attacks punctuated by your asinine little emoticons maybe you should give some thought to where you will be in two years: working for a company with 500 cable monkeys and a handful of integrators (sorry DB) or owning a company with 10 teams of cable monkeys and integrators whose every job is installing the ubiquitous ?CBUS technology?

Sure, using my example some jobs won?t use the full 12 channels, others might need to purchase a second pack and only use 18 channels (for now) but they would at least have accepted the methodology and the infrastructure is in place which of course means CIS has a future.

And if I may respond to a few of your questions. A six channel dimmer is in the catalogue. Simply take one 12 channel or two 4 channel dmmers and leave a few for the future.

The CBus basics that Ashley referred too, well that would be say a relay and a switch. Can't get much more basic than that!

How do you like them apples?

 

Ashley W - I appollagise, no apologize, no appal, no sorry that my speling is bad. I am impressed that you know the difference between a cardboard and real c-bus display. I am not so impressed that they are presenting it to the good people of Canberra dusty. That can't help sales one bit.
I plan on upgrading my pc to incorperate a spel cheker because maybe my points could be more valid if I could spel.

Peter from psc or is it pcs hit the nail right on the head when he said

 

Phoneman, you are a tool

As for your reference to Betamax I think you should stop living in the past.

And FYI I don't profess to be a Cbus "Master" as you put it, there are alot more experienced and knowledgeable integrators than myself.

Maybe you need to go to OPSM get some glasses, at no stage did I mention anything about a 6 channel dimmer - maybe you should get your facts right before you become the BIGGEST tool in the shed

Last time I checked a relay and a switch was an integral part of all our installations, even our most advanced ones. I can understand you mistaking a C2000 Cbus switch as a 'basic" product just because it looks old school, I can assure you there isn't that much difference (besides looks) between that and a Saturn input unit. I don't see how you came to the conclusion that a relay is a basic product.

Maybe it's just you that likes that retro look? Hey why don't they bring back the black box dimmers and relays - no, better still lets go back to the beige dimmers and relays - they where cool.

Hang on, try this one - "Put that in your pipe and smoke it!"


P.S. At least you spelt my tag correctly - PSC.

 

Opps that must be my spell checker telling me that PCS is not real and giving me PSC instead!!!

I am pleased you think the bowl is big enough, it does perplex me though why you are so anti in your options for what has been discussed here!

Who Says they have to be half arsed?

No, maybe there is no margin, but again that this who conversation has been about entry level stuff (which I will explain shortly) and the entry level stuff can be done well within the margins that the every day sparkie already works to. Again that has been my argument all along.

Sorry I don?t quite understand what you are getting at. For me I think that maybe Clipsal should themselves be more proactive in the area of display villages and sell the product to a wider market.

I told you that is not what I do for a living, so why would I want to get on a council. So are you confirming to me that there is a ?club? for this type of product, its called the CSI council. Explains a lot I think.

I have made it clear in a few posts that I think the basic range includes the 2000, C2000 etc switch gear, you could add the DIN range of dimmers and relays and if you really wanted to extend the friendship the B&W touch screen. All are products that have been around a while, which should by now have recovered their costs and could, if the desire was there be used as entry level products to assist in opening the market wide.

This was about C-bus2, I knew the answer just wanted someone to write it. Isn?t that the entry level stuff I have been speaking of. So it was designed to be done by people without the specific C-bus training, so the every day sparkie. So in essence C-bus is also designed as product that could be used in simple applications and done by non specialist installers who are not part of the ?club?. Hmmmm

It?s not a market I want and you have made it clear, rightly so there are no margins in it for you, but hey why not hand that market over to the everyday sparkie. Drive the product wider and create new opportunities. Sounds good, but then that is getting away from the ?club?

I am pleased about that as I am no threat, but why are you threatened by the possibility of the product going wider? If it goes wider isn?t that good for everyone, or does making it go wider mean it is less of an art which would mean the margins for doing the work actually becomes less? Think back to the evolution of C-bus and I am sure you will find that the fancy automation and integration functions are only relatively new, i.e. the past 3 years, before that C-bus was just a lighting control system with the ability to do basic control of other devices. Firstly unless I am mistaken C-bus was designed more for industrial lighting control systems, like in office environments and it has evolved from there. IMO it is still a good product and well worth having even if it is being used a fancy light switch. From a value perspective I think being able to install C-bus for $100 a light circuit (which is why my system averaged out at in 2000) is ideal, but with today?s prices and products the costs for the same functionality is around $150 per light circuit.

But back to automation it is relatively new feature NATIVE to C-bus. It was firstly Minder that added home automation functions (which was 6+ years ago at least), and I guess you could add the scene controller too, but nothing else was really there for the purpose of ?automation? per se. Now, in the past 3 years or so we have that ability, and rightly so in the, C-touch, Home Gate, Schedule Plus and PICED products. That?s great and I have no issue. But that is not to say the origins of C-bus are to be ignored. Sure the market isn?t there for specialist integrators and I?ve said that in every post, so leave the rest to the sparkies and allow the products to be marketed and priced accordingly.

Yep NEW technology costs, but old technology should come down in price. You will see not once have I said anything adverse about the prices of the new kit, such as C-touch, Saturn, Neo, PECED etc, my gripe is about the ?old? and developed products. Someone gave the example of new plasma and LCD televisions in the shops which is a great example of what I have been saying all along. Yes it is true that people are buying these more and paying the premium, but guess what these new products have lowered the price of the old stuff which in turn is driving a new market. The old stuff is still selling isn?t it? Also guess what the people, even the ones who are buying the widescreen CRT gear (I.e. the low end) are also spending in other areas, in this case of home theatre, so why not give them the opportunity to enter the c-bus market as a lead-in to full automation. How do you do that, well you do it by driving the cost of the entry level stuff down, making it more accessible and then making profit from the higher margins on the high end gear. The only way to do that is to give the low market to the every day sparkie and to let the specialised integrators have the high end of the market. But no as has been confirmed there is a ?club? and that club is who sets the price (that was surprise) and the marketing strategy. It all starts to make sense now.

 

No problems with spelling mine is pretty crap too. You hit the nail on the head though the spelling or lack there of does not change the arguments, rightly or wrongly. Clearly the fact you have to make note of it means you have read what has been written before.

You are also right (but could do without the sarcasm, that is just another sign of the arrogance I am seeing from so called professionals in this thread) having a dusty display doesn?t present well does it? What is the point of it? It should be a showcase for the product not just another dusty cardboard display. But as I said though it?s in the wrong place. The people who go into L&H already know of the products and a display like that does nothing but take up room and gather dust, but a display like that, working and not dusty would be a much better way to showcase it. That is where Project Lighting in Belconnen has hit the nail on the head. Even better a whole house wired and working, could you imagine that.

Also as I said there is no market, or more to point no margin in an integrator getting into the low end of the market, but there is no reason why it couldn?t be just another way the sparkie could wire a house. I wouldn?t want the low end Canberra market, but there are quite a few sparkies who could well offer it at little or no effort. Indeed the costs they gain by installing it could well be the profit cream of the future. This gives their product a greater foothold in the market which would benefit everyone including the integrators ?club? members.

 

A dimmer short of an entry pack

Bravo Peter.
Not a truer word said. I think from my observation that Phoneman might be a dimmer short of an entry pack !
Now if I could only find a supply of Betamax's for my next projects i'll be laughing.

Regards Stephen

 

You blokes are really something. What Phoneman was saying was so very true. In the days of Beta and VHS, Beta was the far superior technology (you won?t find many that would disagree) but the problem was Sony were a pack of arrogant buggers who thought their product was a cut above the rest and priced the licensing as such. JVC came along with VHS which wasn?t quite as good, but priced it such that it took off and Beta died, except of course in the real high end market such as news rooms.

Back to C-bus I guess what he is saying is the same. If C-Bus is marketed and priced as an elitist product there may well come a product that may be technically inferior which may well just take the whole market away. I said as much myself, what are foreign companies making, especially the Chinese? You can already see foreign products popping up in homes across Australia even in the standard switch range (3 of the people who live near me have Auslec switches which are Chinese and IMO inferior to HPM and Clipsal), so it could happen with C-bus type products too. Wake up to yourselves fellas!!

 

Ring, Ring, why don't you give me call. (It's a 70's thing)

Ok guys,

If you would like to contact me to discuss this matter further (because Ross is tried, Darren needs glasses from reading the 10,000 word posts, BSS is performing at the international comedy festival where they don't internet & my spelling checker is now broken) please feel free to contact me on 0402 081 172.

Looking forward to your call.

 

The point is!

PSC, you have your views and heaven forbid others (even tools) have theirs.

If you really think the lessons from Betamax is living in the past then you don't have a very bright future but given you resort to personal attacks, I guess that is pretty evident to all.

If this thread made it to Clipsal Management, I am sure I know what they would be thinking and if they want to brainstorm it even more they even know where to find me but if they want to remain a small time niche player in the fastest growing industry segment in the world, they have your number.


PS. Who's your money on, Blu-ray or HD-DVD?

 

OK.. everyones had their lengthy say on this matter... move along.. nothing more to see here..