Somfey Blinds into C-Bus

I have just purchased two motorised Somefey blinds to install into my home. How do you intergrate them into the C-Bus so you can control all normal functions?

Regards
Doug

 

I'm just about to start a job where Somfy blinds are being installed. They haven't confirmed that they want them controlled by C-Bus, but I'll find out if it can be done then try and talk them into it!

The job consists of a function room that can be split (with huge movable walls) into 7 smaller areas. As well as general lighting there is LED feature lighting, and fibre optic "star lights" (6000 specks of light - thankfully I only have to provide feeds to 8 illuminators!). There's also 2 ceiling projectors with motorised screens. As you can imagine, it will be a bit disappointing to have all this on C-bus just to leave the blinds out.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll be learning a bit along the way. Stay tuned...

 

Have had dealings with aluminium roller shutters using these controllers. These had their own controllers that stopped the motor on detection of fully up or fully down. They provided means for digital control (ie. relay signals) from other components made by this company which provide a sort of 2way or multipoint switching and also multiple blinds on one control.

A major trap is one circuit per blind motor, anything more complex than this and you must use their controllers otherwise the blinds will not operate correctly.

There is only up or down, no half way as such. I was not able to easily program a method of preventing up and down being pressed at same time (especially if more than one switching point) and had to use some exclusiveOR logic with Home-Minder.

I concluded in the end that all I did was waste a lot of time. In retrospect, it would have been easier and much less of a headache to use their system as it stands. Not saying it cannot be done, just that it was not as easy as it first appeared.

 

Do you have a remote control with the Somfy's?

If so, Somfy require 240V to be wired directly to the blind. All you will need is a two sets of contacts (voltage free) from the CBus relay - one for up & one for down. So set the key inputs on the switch or touch screen to 2 sec timers (or press buttons, only in Reflection, NEO & Saturn) thus only provide a short pulse to the Somfy.

However it does depend on the type of Somfy controller you have. If the Somfy requires power to it obviously you need to get it from a CBus relay.

Make sure that you supply power to the Somfy for 2-5 seconds longer than it requires, otherwise the blind may well stop short of your intended finishing point. The extra power supplied will not hurt it as the power to the blind is cut when the blind reaches it limits. This extra 2-5 seconds is needed because over time motorised blinds tend to slow down.

With all motorised blinds make sure the top & bottom limits are set correctly!

As stated previously; to stop the blinds you need to pulse / supply power to both the up & the down channels. This is probably best done with Minder.
In fact if you want the blinds to truly functional purchase a Somfy wind & sun sensor & hook it up to the Minder. This way if it is too windy the Minder will bring the blinds up & if it's very sunny it will put the blinds down. With Minder the blind can now be controlled to only operate in the day & not at night and operate differenty on weekends etc etc.

DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME TRYING TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY! TRUST ME.

If you don't have a Minder buy one and automate your blinds properly.


PSC.

 

Thanks very much to everyone for the help. Appreciate it.

Regards

Doug

 

How I plan to do it

This is how I plan to program the relays (see attached images). I'll have to replicate this setup for all 16 blinds. This way I'll also have a "Stop" control, using the logic address.

PSC and Advantex: What do you think?

 

Peter

Would it be easier to use a changeover relay instead of a standard relay?

Regards

Doug

 

Doug,

I haven't played with changeover relays yet. Do they have an Off position, or is one of the contacts always selected? I assume it's the latter. If so, the blind would constantly be being told to either open or close. Even though the blind's limit switches prevent any action, it still wouldn't be desirable.

Also, according to PSC, to stop the blind you need to apply power to both the Up and Down channels. A changeover relay wouldn't allow you to do that.

Regards,

 

Peter

I was under the assumption that a change over relay allowed you to latch a position by using a set of N/O and N/C contacts. You could pulse the blinds up and down by using the bell press function on either a touch screen, NEO or Saturn key inputs. Could we please be able to get clarification from CIS as to the suitability of a change over relay for this purpose?

Regards

Doug

 

An example.....

http://www.clipsal.com/cis/pdf_files/CIS_2003_newsletter.PDF

An Example of wiring for motor shutters can be found in this link.... I think you'll find what you want is around page 21

Michael

 

A quick question, off topic....

Hi Everybody,
Does Somfy make the complete system, blinds, motor etc. or just the motorised stuff. I had a look through www.somfy.com.au and it's all about the automation of blinds, awnings and nothing about the actual blinds themselves....
Regards,
Michael.

 

Micheal

Thanks alot that was exactly what I was after.

Regards

Doug

 

Yep, very helpful.

You were on the right track with the changeover relays Doug! I'm glad I found out now, before I started ordering gear.

 

Peter:

1. I assume you are using C-Bus control. 2. I can only assume Somfy use the same/similar controllers regardless of the blind/shutter/awning attached. 3. If (as in NZ), Somfy will have priced to provide controllers as part of the tender regardless of wether you want to use them or not. 4. It is your preference or desire to C-Bus or otherwise automate the control.

I have not played with these devices extensively, however their controllers are self managing. Please do not assume that one set of relay outputs will control several blind motors - this is the trap I fell into. Somfy use a reversible single phase motor - internally configured "different" from what you might expect. Their own controllers manage the limit settings very well.

I suspect you intend to use the Somfy controllers to drive the motors however IF you intend to drive them direct from a C-Bus relay, then a pulse (timed to extend past fully open or fully close) or similar command will be required. Power on after limit has been reached is not a problem for the blind and suggest you do as PCS indicated - even in this mode - and extend the on/off times by a couple of seconds. You (should) allow for the possiblilty of some fiddler attempting to press up and down at the same time, (the blind motors DO NOT like this!) and as stated before, that this is not easy bearing in mind that C-Bus does not have an "output enable" (output only while true) type command.

Using the Somfy controllers, PCS is correct as best as my memory serves me. As noted, the controller needs a non switched 230v power supply. If using their controllers (recommended), multiple switch points are also best achived this way as is 'global up/down (open/close).

What you need to be careful of is the relationship of the C-Bus tags. In regards to a changover relay (I have not used one), remember that the blind if powered up for example will not like a down command being issued at the same time or from another source i.e. C-Touch. Remember, C-Bus has no output enable command, just 'if on, go off' or 'if off, go on' or 'toggle/pulse/timer etc'. With a changeover relay, you must ensure the blind cannot remain powered on one direction when a command is issued to go in the other direction.

I could be stepping out of line here, but if you are not sure what is going to be required, perhaps I could suggest (with all respect to Clipsal) that you use an Allen Bradley Pico Controller or any other similar brand as an intermediatery device. Send your commands to the pico, let the pico decide multiple commands, timing (which is user adjustable via the LCD display) and the logic to prevent up and down operation from any one or more sources being activated at the same time. If ths is of interest, I can guide you further. They are not expensive and dead easy to program.

 

Hi --

I recently installed four Somfy-driven internal blinds, linked in two of groups of two.

I decided to go the 'long' route (see below) mainly due to the fact that there is no local Somfy distribution in South Africa. Add to this a couple of oddities (e.g. the motors require Somfy 24 volt transformers) / Clipsal had never heard of Somfy / the [Somfy] blind supplier had never heard of Clipsal / etc etc - you get my drift <g>

The 'long route' was to:

1. Order standard IR remote controlled Somfy blinds;
2. Order a Clipsal 5034NIRT with two IR outputs;
3. Use the IR transmitters to duplicate the Somfy IR remote control by sticking the emitter heads on the Somfy IR receiver. A minor benefit is that, in cases of emergency, the Somfy remote still works.

To duplicate the Somfy codes I found it easiest to pay one of the local Clipsal integrators to install the Somfy IR codes (using a 5100RP IR Reader).

To use the Somfy 8-channel IR control one first selects the channel (i.e. blind) using the numeric portion of the keypad and then the motion (up/stop/down). By using the IR reader we discovered that the codes for each channel differ, but that the codes for the motion are identical, irrespective of channel.

So, after fiddling a little, we set up four commands, duplicated for each channel: select channel / channel up / channel stop / channel down.

These were transferred to an 8-way Neo for manual control: the left bank of four switches (i.e. channel 1) controls blinds 1 & 2, the right bank (i.e. channel 2) controls blinds 3 & 4. Manual control of the blinds is thus identical to the Somfy remote.

The control was also transferred to a Minder, which is responsible for opening / closing the blinds each day. After some cursing (par for the course <g>) I found that the most reliable method of controlling the blind was to first pulse the channel selection then pulse the motion, both for about 0,3 of a second.

There is the occasional hiccough - the log shows the commands as being executed, but the blind stays put - but this is so infrequent that it hasn't been worth investigating. [The blinds always work if the command is repeated, so I am thinking of programming the Minder to simply re-issue the commands after a two-minute delay].

Hope this helps

-- rowan

 

Blind Control

Peter & Doug,

Peter your suggestion (via screen grabs) is simple and clean, the only down side with this is I guess you are going to use three buttons for the control. In all cases be very careful to consider interlocking, that is making sure someone cannot energise a motor in both directions at once. In the case of motor controlers like the Somfy (CD4 etc) the interlocking is taken care by the motor controller and you are controlling aux inputs into that controller. If the motor has no internal control, it is strongly recommended to use electrical interlocking via a change over contact. There are two forms of electrical interlocking, one - if both up and down are powered at once, a single C/O contact will interupt the power to the other channel. Two - two C/O contacts used will see a motor stop if both channels are operated at once, eg, each C/O contact interupts power to the opposite channel. (It is a little hard to discribe with words alone)

Important: Do not rely on logic alone for achieving interlocking.

 

somfy blinds

You can use a somfy CD 4 controller or through cbus with minder to contol the interlocks
Be careful with the CD 4as the wiring diagram differs from the device to the one in the box also depends on which end of the blind the motor is on
Dale

 

I have had a lot of experience with C-BUS and Somfy blinds.
The best way I have found to control the blinds is directly from C-BUS with electrical interlocking relays, not using the Somfy relay control boxes.
I have found in the past the somfy control boxes can lock up and require powering down then up again.

If you are to control them without the somfy control box the blinds must be electrically interlocked so the motors will not receive power on the up and down windings at the same time or you will void any warranty.
To control one blind, all you need is one relay with normally open contacts NC, normally closed contacts NO and common C and 2 C-BUS outputs.
Note if you are to control more than 1 motor together in a group you will need to wire all motors separately back and use 2 x C-BUS outputs for each blind or use multi-pole relays.

The motors do not like to be joined together and cause back EMF to each other.
I have recently finished a project with 28 Somfy blinds which were wired this way and controlled by a C-Touch with no problems in counted at all.

The C-BUS switches should be programmed as timers for about 5 seconds longer than the blinds require, so that the power is release from the blinds and not solely relying on the limits of the blinds.

If you require any schematic diagrams I can write one up for you.

 

Somfy

The somfy motors are usually split winding.

We have a relay set up that allows both the minder and/or C bus and /or manual wall switch to operate together.

Is the motor split winding? do you want a manual wall switch (es) as well?

 

Swapping direction

Rossco

I wired up my blinds last night and using a changeover relay and a set of contacts from the standard relay for interlocking. I have set up both blinds to operate from the touch screen off a bell press for initial testing. The blinds went in opposite directions i.e. one up and one down when a down command chosen. I thought I had swapped over the wiring so I swapped the wiring on one then tested again. All good this time. However a few minutes later one blind swapped directions??? I check my wiring on both ends this time and found that my original wiring was correct so I swapped back to that and the system is running fine now. I still have to set it up for single touch timer control but I was wondering if you had ever encountered this problem.

Regards

Doug