The blind leading the Blinds

If we want a product to best show off the capability of automation, we need look no further than Motorised Blinds/Curtains.

Seems Somfy/Silent Gliss has the market to themselves in Australia hence the going rate of AU$1000 per window.

Now surely CIS has the contacts (sic) to develop something at a marketable price. Look at some of the (dare I say) x10 products, wireless or not, we need it and the market wants it!

 

agree. Just finished a post which used this word, so I will use it again. Blinds are sexy, if automated.

Going to go a little sideways here, C-Bus can control most blinds of other manufacture - but not very effectively or ecconomically (as I have found anyway) - refer forum on Somfy blinds. Should Clipsal manufacture blind motors/controls - perhaps not. Perhaps money would be better invested in the command structure of C-Bus to better control existing blind manufacturers products.

Reading through the forums and from my own background and experience, C-Bus and Home-Minder products lack a few of the basic PLC language commands that would be well used if introduced and a few specific commands (or devices) could be added.

Would Clipsal give some thought to a 'this or that' type command that includes some method of interlocking (exclusive OR or whatever) to save having to add further components, space, wiring, drawings etc. to prevent simultaneous use of two active tags (addresses) - ie, up/down, open/close whatever you like to call it.

Using the Somfy forum topic as example, "this (tag) can only be active (true) if the other (other tag) is not active (not true). Can I stimulate some good thought from the obviously good minds active on this forum?

 

Have a look at 'Electronic Contorl Solutions', www.elecb-solutions.com. They have some very good control systems for blinds etc that can be controlled via a CBus IR output. And the prices are very reaasonable.

 

Hi.

I thought I would add my 2 cents worth.

It's difficult to find a balance between flexibility and ease of use. The existing set of parameters which can be set in C-Bus devices has evolved from the earliest 4-key units and 4 channel dimmers/relay units introduced in 1994. At that time, blind control was not common, and usually the expense of a C-Bus relay unit dedicated to the blind would not be a problem. Most users thought we had it about right, although it seemed too complicated to explain how to use the system at the time. I guess the market has grown a bit..

Interlocking of relay outputs were introduced in C-Bus2 mainly for the control of multiple-tapped motors(fans), and as a consequence, allow up to 8 channels to be interlocked so that only one is on at a time. This would be fine if you had only a single blind. The interlock is in firmware, so as long as the microcontroller is operating, two relays can not be on at the same time. Now that Somfy blinds have come into vogue, the requirements have changed, and now it would be useful to have support for multiple channels interlocked in pairs.

As for new commands and more sophisticated logic in the system, you will see some more capability in the Saturn series of key units over NEO, and more in NEO than C-Bus(1) units. The advantage of putting the power in the key/sensor units is that the final descisions are apparent on the bus, so that predicting the state of the final load is much easier when you minitor traffic on the bus (as C-Gate does). Hmm. How close does C-Touch get to your requirement?

Don

 

Don

Your 2cents worth is invaluable. Thanks

My last situation incorporated 5 individual aluminium shutters (blinds) and two groups of three (these are the ones I needed to use the Somfey controllers for). The house had Home-minder and two C-Touch screens.

Initially I set each 2key unit for the individual shutters (open/close) as timers to pulse the unit up or down with enough time to reach the limits. All was well until I started thinking about direction interlocking and, as example, someone using a C-touch at the other end of the building to globally open all blinds whilst some in a bedroom was closing a blind. Stopping blinds half way also needed to be considered.

I opted to use Home-minder to control the logic but it was difficult. I eventually got something like what I wanted with individual and global commands from multible sources. Initially by dynamically changing and pulsing a class but with little time to test this on-site and Clipsal not being able to answer my questions about the reactions of individuals within a pulsed class, I ended up using counters (-1,0,+1) to indicate desired direction of global and individual commands and with a lot of exclusive or and exclusive nor logic, it worked. However it took ages to nut out.

One blind, one source of control, two directions - it is not a great problem with electrical interlocking. Multiple or global commands for several blinds combined with individual command points can prove hard to make fiddle proof. That was the basis for my comment and my suggestion.

If, using the above example, Clipsal had a reasonable microcontroller that was programmable using sequential scan processing (similar to Micrologix 1000 type power - refer to some of my other posts) then control situations like this and many more would be a breeze and more reliable.

I do see the point that this sort of thing is far from a usual occurance, however if the control system or hardware existed, then the abilities of the system as a whole could be enhanced dramatically.

 

Adantex

No matter what software and logic control is put into place the blind motor MUST still have a physical interlock to stop the up and down windings being supplied current at he same time.

The use of relays which are wired correctly will stop this no matter what is going on, on the bus or if someone overides the relays manually.
We have never had a problem controlling the blinds with interlocking relays and the software interlocking can be done by a C-Touch or Minder with no problems what so ever.

Regards,
Rossco

 

Rossco

I agree, although I actually experienced no problem using the eventual logic. How did/do you organise the group inputs - timer?

 

Can you reccomend an interlocking relay

Good disscussion guys. I have a simple installation of 6 blinds and I need to use relays to eliminate the possibility of energising both directions. Any reccomendation on the relays to use?

Thanks in advance.

 

Interlocking

Mr Tangey is 100% correct, there are a million ways to achieve software interlocking - if you are in this business and want to stay in business the only safe way is to use electrical interlocking.

Electrical interlocking = No1. Software interlocking/timing thereafter...

 

Jason

Any relay with a NO, NC and COM which can handle the load of the motor will do.
Remember if you are grouping the bling EG. 2 blinds will be joined together you must use a double pole relay, the motor winding should never be joined directly together because if one motor stops before the other by its limits the motor still traveling will induse a EMF into the other and can cause damage.
I think it is good to have switches on a timer to release the power from the motor after a short period of time, that way you are not relying on the limit of the motor from keeping the supply to the motor.

Regards,
Rossco

 

Assume you have electrical interlocking and a two key input switch (up / down) for a blind motor. The blind takes 18 seconds to travel from top to bottom. You program the key input commands as timers, lets say at 20 seconds each to ensure complete travel of the motor and allow it to reach its limits.

Assume the blind is down. Press up - what happens?. Now, 10 seconds later you change your mind and press down - what happens?

 

When you do blinds you will always add a software interlock in as well as a electrical one for that case.

When the key for blinds up is pressed you , send the Blinds down to Off and Blinds up relay to On and vise versa.
This will give you correct control whatever key is pressed.
This logic can be done by a C-Touch or Minder.

 

Wholesale manufacturing

I have engaged a company to install electric blinds on the Sunshine Coast. Remis Australia produces blinds at a rate of $110/sqm and add $200 for a motor. Sliding adjustable track $9/m includes mounting brackets.

The motor is easily integrated into CBUS with either a double pole NO/NC relay or if you want the ability to stop the blind at any point, use a two channel relay (one up, one down). I have written the software for a CTouch to control the blinds, allowing for pauses between direction changes and so on.

If you want any more info check the website http://www.remis-australia.com

 

great solutions buy oh the dollars

I am doing a home theater that requires 2 blacked out windows, an equipment rak that can be manually drive as could the one over the door. Then there is the scrren curtain over the stage area. Trouble is each of the arches are 1200wide, the cavity I have beeb given is 75mm deep. This appears simple but any quote startes with sotfware oh allow a grand a window. No I know I am not going to the client to suggest that this task is going to cost him in the order of one thousand per window plus programming in an imprerferct world. urely the makita type systems around the world could be bought her, the do exaclty that same task. OH MY GOD I new I should have never promised. does ony one know a story of how a house burnt down beacuse of expensive motrized draperey. She is very nervous you know

 

Latching relays

We used the C-Bus latching relays to control 2 sets of curtains and two sets of blinds. They have worked flawlessly since installed a year ago. We had a lot of trouble with the blind/curtain manufacturers who didn't seem to want to release details of the specs. of the motors. I think probably because the rep. didn't have a clue how they worked or the motor ratings. You must ensure the motors have inbuilt interlocks to change direction-don't rely on software to do it!
This install is in a penthouse at Scarborough Beach W.A. Neo switches, Neon lights in the ceilings and underfloor heating in the bathrooms, we controlled it all with C-Bus and have been delighted with the reliability and utility of it.
Tony.

 

To late?

That thread is quite old, but just some comments here (we are one of the OEM manufacturers for motors)

Absolutely essential for controlling blinds, shutters, curtains, etc:
(Partly already mentioned):
- Interlocking in open and close direction (Best by electrical interlocking)
- No parallel connection of most motors
- SWITCH-OVER DELAY between open and close of min. 0.5 seconds!


The easy way out:
1000 Dollars for a controller to do that is in fact way too expensive. We have controllers that do that job for 128 - 240 dollars (and is even DIN rail mounted and you can connect 2 motors, or with built in radio receiver, etc)
With that controller in between all you need to set your C-bus switch function to is "bell press" and you have all these features plus latching, stopping, inching function as well as power off to the blinds after 3 minutes (just in case there is something wrong with the limit switches)
No need for any Minder or changeover relay (cost saving!) for proper motor integration.

The controller works for all major motor manufactures in the world (Somfy (no, they do not the blinds, only the motors and controls), Simu, Becker, Jolly, elero, etc) without effecting their warranty.

Hope this still helps someone out there