Toolkit Help please - Joining Networks back again

Hi all - apologies up front for a long post, but I'd really appreciate some help...

I have "inherited" a fairly large project with multiple Networks. I don't have any documentation of the original project, so I have been scanning and then re-building a new Toolkit project. I have no idea how many physical devices there are, and many are hidden in ceiling voids, cupboards, etc and scattered over 2 floors of a building.

There were some bad comms errors (Cbus Comms connected by twisting the wires together but no terminal blocks = DOH) and also many many duplicate Unit Addresses which caused me a lot of problems with Network Scans. I have no idea how many active GA's there are, nor even what they actually do. Some GAs reside in switches but not Output devices, and visa-versa.

The project has been added to and changed a lot over a period of 4-5 years. The person who originally set it up chose obscure Unit Names like "LC1.9IRT" which mean nothing to me, nor is that marked on the devices. And anyway it's not reliable as there are at least 40 NEWUNITs scattered around.

So all in all it's an absolute mess, and I am really running blind on this job!

Initially I thought it was all 1 x Network which I scanned in as a new Project, and then I proceeded to rename all the Units and GAs so they made sense. Basically "Application Log", Press a button and see what happens, repeat... I subsequently found that there was a separate Network, which I had to scan in as another separate Project.

After fixing numerous duplicated Unit Addresses, 2 x Network Bridges suddenly appeared! I have NO idea the physical location of these Bridges, nor what the connect to/between. Since I am still unravelling the situation, I am unsure at this stage the reason for the bridges nor what comms are requried between them.

Project Summaries, as they are in Toolkit at the moment :

Project A
Network 254
- Network Scan lists 105 Units
- 209 x GA's (I still have 136 left to identify)
- Network Bridge (0061) Addr 253 links to Network 253 (huh?) **
- Network Bridge (0062) Addr 254 links to Local Network
Network 253
- Network Scan lists 0 units
- 207 x GA's (that seem to be the same as on Network 254)

PROJECT B
Network 254
- Network Scan lists 49 Units
- 164 x GA's (I have identified about 60 so far)
- Network Bridge (0061) Addr 253 links to Nothing
** note this is the same serial No as Network A

There is a B&W Touch on Network A, and this seems to issue commands to both Networks (mainly an "all off" scene controlling Area Addresses).

A 17" touchscreen and PC running Homegate 1.3 controls some of the loads on Network B (a product display room).
- I have a copy of the Homegate *.xml file (from a Cbus V2 database) and am trying to reverse-engineer the touchscreen to determine what loads it controls.

Network B also has a PCINT4 (that I can't even find) and a CNI that connects to the Homegate and also the office LAN via a switch. From a remote site I can VNC into the PC, and whilst I can see the CNI I haven't bothered to connect to it by Telnet, etc.

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My problem is that Network Bridges completely screw with my head - I have never been able to understand how they work. I am therefore having considerable trouble understanding the overall project and how it even operates!

So, I am hoping you can hellp - my questions are :

Is there a Tutorial on Network Bridges for Dummies? I have read all about Cbus Topologies etc and still I can't get it through my head Can anyone here explain them "in a nutshell", and how the GAs work within them ?
I can't see a way to set up the Network Addresses inside the Bridges - are they assigned automatically?

Why am I scanning up 2 x Network Bridges, yet one (serial 0062) seems to connect to "itself" (local network)?

How do I scan the OTHER side of a Network bridge, to determine what it connects to?

Why is it that GA's of units that seem to be on the FAR side of the bridge are appearing in my Local Network's GA listing ? (that make sense?)

Why is the same Bridge (serial 0061) appearing on both networks as Unit Addr 253, and only connecting one way (and to Network 253)? It seems wierd to me.

The Bridges are set NOT to send messages to Adjacent network - Why would there be 2 physical networks when there doesn't appear to be shared GA's?

How can I "combine" the new Project B into the original Project A ? And how do I make the GAs, tagnames, etc appear in the correct Network ? I really don't want to type all the Unit and Group names in manually.

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I'd really appreciate some assistance with this - I am wasting far too much time trying to get my head around it.

Thanks in advance, John

 

John

Sounds like there are a range of very dodgy things going on at that site, including the programming.

Put simply, network bridges are SUPPOSED to have a unit address that corresponds to the network address on the other side. So, if my local network address is 254 and a network on the far side of a bridge is address 253 then the unit address of the bridge on the local network should be 253 and the unit address of the bridge on the remote (far) network should be 254.

WRT addressing, bridges have separate behaviour for normal lighting messages and programming messages. A bridge can be programmed to not allow lighitng messages through, only send lighitng messages across that one bridge or send them off to some far-flung network. Programming messages are explicitly routed from one point to another, through up to 6 network bridges.

I suggest that you get all 3 networks in the same C-Bus project. That will allow you to get the bridge addressing sorted out.

There could be a range of reasons why there are multiple networks. It could simply be nothing more than a network length issue, or perhaps it's 1 network per floor with a C-Bus backbone that they both connect to. Who knows.

Now the B&W C-Touch is something else to consider. It can be programmed to explicitly route messages to specific networks (a bit like a bridge can) so I'd make a backup of your C-Touch project too before ripping things to bits too much.

 

Yep, that sure sums it up Newman !

So, how do I scan the FAR side of a bridge in Toolkit (sorry, dumb question but I have never done it before...) ?
- Once I know how to do that, I guess I'll be able to determine what is connected to that other Bridge.

And is there some quick way of combining (importing) the GA's from the Network in Duplicated Project (B) into the 2nd Network of the main Project (A) ?

I'd prefer not to have to type all the GA Tags and Unit Names in again - but if I have to do it then I'd prefer to do it now before I type in the other 100 x GAs on that network (which must be done this week).

Thanks, John

 

Scan the Local Network.. find the Near Side of the Bridge (unit type of BRIDGE1F or BRIDGE2N), select that Unit in the Physical Units View at the bottom of the screen, you will see a button appear on the lower toolbar titled "Make Network", press this button, a new Network will be added to your project to support the Far Side of this bridge.. wait for this occur (1-2 seconds) then hit Scan Network to scan the far side..

 

Thanks Duncan

Now, is there some way of "duplicating the networks" across? There is matching Serial Numbers in both Projects, I guess I could match them with that (manually) ??

I need a kinda "re-install" but in reverse (and just in software) or a special "move between projects" button

Starting to feel sick at the thought of fixing this stupid project (it'll be a lifetime effort)

Thanks, John

 

Not within Toolkit..

We DO have a little utility that Richo put together that will take multiple "Single Network Projects" and make a "Multiple Network Project" out of them.. is this the sort of thing you're after?

 

Yes, Duncan - I think that's what is required.

My problem is that the "old" networks didn't have any TagNames or Device Names, so I have been renaming those and also writing detailed descriptions (TagNames) in the Database for each device and load. At this stage there are 2 separate Network Projects, although 1 also shows the 2nd Network (which has not been scanned).

Anything that would automate the "joining" of these Networks into 1 project will help me considerably. I'm sure that I could back up both XML files and then run the Utility and see what happens.

Thanks for your assistance - much appreciated, John

 

Emailed..

 

Duncan,

I wish to do a similar thing however, I have two existing projects in toolkit that happen to be two joined apartments.

The owner has bought both and wants to knock out a few walls and join the c-bus.

I could run a cable and make it one large network, however I would have to re-careate all the units into one project.

If i join the two networks via a network bridge, how do I join the projects in ToolKit? If I opened one project and created a new network, I can copy tags across. However If i use application connect mode, I will get cross talk where there are two groups with the same Hex address wont I????

Can I join projects and change one lighting application to stop that. The CTC's would still be able to send across the bridge and i wont get any "cross talk".

I hope I haven't confused everyone, as i have myself

Chris.

 

Chris.. there's a range of dodgy hacks you could do.. personally I'd add a bridge and reprogram the site from the ground up.

There's a utility I can send you that will take networks from 2 seperate projects and make them into one new project with 2 networks if that would help?

 

toolkit on touch screen

just a thought did the installer , put a copy of toolkit on the touch screen pc running home gate?

 

lcrowhurst - if your question related to my original post, then the answer is "sort-of"

The PC running Homegate has a copy of the old V2 software on it. There was also a B&W touch on the main network.

The whole site was set up in V2, there was (old) copies of the database available but after import to Toolkit they bore little relationship to the realities on site. Worse - the original integrator had used a very "odd" method of labelling the devices, and there wasn't anything written down.

All I could see was that there was a switch named (say) "1LC.3BG" but until put Tookit into "Application Log" mode and physically pressed EVERY DAMN SWITCH in the place, I had no way of knowing which switch that was ! Imagine doing that for some 100 switches spread over 2 floors and you'll see why I connected to the C-Bus Network at numerous places.

So the big issue is that the site was physically too large to connect to and scan easily... in fact when I did the scans I had no way of knowing how many networks there were, or what was connected to each. It was only after I'd done my scans did I notice the duplicated Networks caused from connecting into the site from different C-Bus Networks... and that causes a massive mess !

Cheers, John

 

Duncan,

I think your right with a bridge.

That little application you have would be good.

Cheers,

Chris.

 

Well, I am in the same awkward situation like JohnC who started this post.
In a fairly large residential project there are 2 networks. A network bridge was installed but not programmed for the last 5 years.
I was called and I made myself some major improvements to the programming however I want be satisfied, and the client probably too, if I do not succeed to unite these networks via the bridge.
After some reading and trials I manage to setup correct the 2 networks.
My target is to assign GA's from one network to other network switches or touch screen. I am afraid that I didn't find other way than copying tags. However since the one network have 165 GA's (0 to 165) and the other 65 GA's (0 to 64) the first 65 GA's were overridden.
How will I overcome this?

 

After some reading regarding the use of network bridges I realised that
1. The only way for controlling everything from everywhere is the copy tag function that limits C-Bus to 255 GA's
2. I should reprogram from the scratch a new network that will use Group addresses from 180 to 245 so that I will not have problem with the copy tag function (0 to 165 are kept for the first network)
2. I have only 25 GA's left for programming in lighting application since 165+65=230
3. Since NEO switches are installed, I can select a second application, so I could move every GA possible to enable control to gain some free GA's

Am I understanding something wrong?

 

There's no need to use Enable Control specifically. If they are lighting loads this is probably not the best idea anyway.

There is not just 1 lighting Application, there is a range. The default application for lighting is 56 (0x38) however you are free to use any Application in the range of 48 to 95 (0x30 to 0x5F).

If you have more than 256 groups in total then rather than using the Enable Control I'd suggets you use another lighting Application for the second network, e.g. 57 (0x39). Set up the Secondary Application on your Neo's to use the other Lighting Application, i.e. 57. Whenever you have a button on a switch that needs to control a load on the other network all you need to do is select the Secondary Application for that button. Oh, and make sure you use the Copy Tags feature to ensure that all group addresses are shown in both networks in the database.

 

Thank you very much Newman.
Is there an easy way to copy or move group addresses from one application (56) to other (57) ?

 

There is no super-quick way, but Toolkit does provide a little help.

Create your new Application Address. Open the first UI for a unit that is using groups that you want to move onto the Secondary Application. Select the Secondary Application on the Unit Identification tab. Now, click the green "P" (for Primary) next to the "Key x Group" drop-down box to turn it to a dark blue "S" (for Secondary). A dialogue box should appear asking if you want to automatically create group addresses on the Secondary Application. Tick the "don't ask me again" box on the dialogue before clicking OK.

From that point onwards it should be just a matter of opening the relevant UI's, changing the Secondary Application address and clicking the green "P's" to put the same groups into the Secondary Application.