What's Missing?

Since Clipsal listened to the users on the forum and produced a nice miniature output module for low voltage there is hope for other nice devices in the future.
Bottom line is feasibility in the marketplace which means profit for Clipsal .
Now grant it I am new to Clipsal but I have researched the other brands for home automation but found Clipsal far superior.

After reading what others want on this blog I will chime in on my wish list:

Worldwide everyone is energy conscious. I believe that Clipsal has the expertise to create a few usable devices.

If there was a current transducer (Coil) that was C bus enabled that could be used on the main house / business incoming main power then on a DLT or touch screen or worse case the C-Bus Toolkit to show Kwh and demand power, wattage and other power parameters. Better yet have the data displayed on a DLT or a touch screen.
If made in different diameters it could be integrated into a Dimmer module. This could be a selling point as there is certain levels of power and the drop off curve while dimming that the output of lumens (light level) is to the human eye slightly unchanged.

Make a 48VDC power supply for the C-Bus.
Reason is there is several Solar Panel controllers on the market that output either 12VDC ,24VDC, and 48VDC. Being that the C-Bus is 36VDC the larger 48VDC input voltage would be a better option. A few gel batteries & a 1/2 meter by 1/2 meter panel would give the 2 amp needed for the C-Bus reliably.

Make a 15 Amp 4 or 8 or 12 channel relay module with SPDT contacts. This way you can wire the load that is on say 70% of the time to the ?Normally Closed? side saving energy and wear & tear on the active coil to hold the relay. Other option is a latching relay as the coil is de-energized.
A 15 amp then could be directly wired to a common off the shelf breaker that is in your existing electric service panel as a 10 Amp is un-common in the USA.

Make a motion sensor that built into a Neo or Saturn faceplate.
Make a 8 button just a 6 and use the upper or lower for Motion.
Here in the USA there are many manufactures that have wall mount motion sensors.
Example:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=17219&minisite=10022

Have a DLT style keypad that will accept the small micro SD card (16 Gig is now common for 30 USD) with a SD card you can have a abundant of MP3 files on it. Not sure how the audio signal would work with the 2 C-Bus wires. Option B is to have a SD slot on the Matrix Switcher. Option C is to have a independent module C Bus enabled to accept a SD card for music or other usable files.

Make a small, very small 250V, 1 amp voltage free single relay module with SPDT (NO/NC) contacts C-bus enabled. If the same size or body as a "Bus Coupler" this would make R&D quicker. This would solve the issue with not wanting to manufacture a C-Bus smoke detector.
Many smoke detectors have a output, so just tie off the output.


Make a single input "Bus Coupler" that can accept a longer than 1 meter wired input.

Have the C Bus Tool-Kit web enabled so from a browser you could control or check status of any of the Clipsal devices.




Just my thoughts
Thanks
Alan Dobbs
Industeq, Inc.

 

lots of good ideas there. I'm sure that this is going to get a bit more discussion going.

One thing in there that I would like to clarify though..

One of the characteristics of Clipsal C-Bus is that we strive to maintain compatibility between new and existing parts. This makes your suggestion of a 48V power supply unattractive, as it would be incompatible with all existing wired C-Bus ( units all incorporate robust overvoltage protection which is active above 41V).

As an alternative, since the system has been designed so that network voltage is allowed to drop with long runs, it may be appropriate to make a 24V power supply in future to maintain compatibility with solar and other alternative energy sources. Of course with lower supply voltage, there would be less 'headroom', and it would probably be appropriate to use heavier cable between units to keep the voltage drop down. The overall system would work with existing units, and would dissipate less power at all times.. a double benefit!

 

I don't think the idea here was to run the bus at 48V, but rather Alan was suggesting that stepping 48V down to 36 would probably result in a simpler, cheaper product than taking 12V or 24V and stepping it up to 36V.

SPDT contacts have a negative impact on the ratings of the contacts themselves. Such a product will definitely cost more, because of the need for a more robust relay. Conventional DIN products are capable of switching their rated load using purely fluorescent ballast loads, and this is particularly harsh on the relay contacts. If all that's required is resistive load types, then that would change things quite a bit.
The majority of all C-Bus Relay products use latching relays, to the benefit of power consumption.

Some great ideas Alan, keep 'em coming!

 

Hi,

This can be achieved with the general input unit. Take any coil suitable to your application and it can be fed into the general input unit. The general input unit can take a varying current, voltage or resistance as an input making it very flexible for integration.

This value can then be broadcast as a C-Bus level or read by a Touchscreen or Pascal Automation Controller and displayed how you like. Showing it on a DLT will take a little bit of logic code but is very possible.

 

Very True.
The most common in the industrial world is 24VDC but 12VDC is mainstream large in part to the automobile.

I was just thinking a higher voltage for less current plus I had the inspiration of POE (Power Over Ethernet) that runs off of 48VDC.

Having a 24VDC power supply would be more feasible at this point of time but my thinking is 48VDC may be the new wave of power requirements

Thanks
Alan Dobbs
Industeq, Inc.

 

If I am not mistaken is the shutter a DIN mount?
Forgive me but in the USA there is not a full Clipsal line because of the UL certification.
But does not prevent me from testing as a consumer.

I was thinking of a module that could be stuffed in a 4?x4? (100mmm x100mm) electrical box.

As for the Wiser, No I have not seen but have read a bit here on the forum.

Thanks
Alan Dobbs
Industeq, Inc

 

WOW.....
Clipsal is well thought out. I would have never thought of the input unit & programming to achieving this.

 

Yes.
It is easier to push the electrons downhill rather than pushing them up.

 

I find with alot of the work that I do that 48v is very very common, especially with Telcos, data centres, POE, etc etc etc. when it comes to DC power (and AC below 50v), that is mains supplied, rather than battery, 48v seems to be far more common than 12 or 24v, except with regards to things like security cameras and alarm panels.

 

Wow. Congrats on listening and asking for feedback!!

Ok. Here are my requests. I'm a high end customer (coming towards the end of a major cbus install into a reno that's taken 3-4 years!) : but with still some way to go! I have had a lot of hands on experience in the instal. Some holes have definitely been filled over this long time with the introduction of Wiser, iphone app, and tee up with Switch automation...so CIS has definitely been listening

...So I'l give you my requests from this perspective. When I was planning and now watching my cbus home auto project being installed I found the following missing/inadequate in the lineup:

1/ Decent A/V control.....

if not : then, at least better integration with other manufacturers gear. I know, I know, I've been previously told that this is not a core area interest for CIS. But the trouble with this approach is that it leaves the customer with a huge hole in what really is THE reason for having a home automation product in the first place. Sure playing with lighting scenes, blinds up and down, or whatever is cool and geeky for a while, but then what. You are still left with 8 remotes and STILL can't use your TV or run flexible multiroom audio at decent quality, with good itunes integration....

So I would like a networkable A/V control solution like Sonos and Control4. That is, something portable that can be taken to the next house along with all your Hifi and TV gear. With a wireless touchscreen. But most importantly, something that can learn IR remote codes and be programmed by the end user ...perhaps with a web library (like the Harmony approach)...

If I can't get this, then at least accept that CIS's A/V control really looks a bit outdated now and somehow offer better integration with other platforms...eg Sonos/itunes/Control4/RTI/ whatever...sign some more co-aggreements!!

2/ A more user friendly software platform for PICED that runs on Macintosh OSX or from a web browser

Having to run a Windows XP machine just to make a few changes to a project file just doesn't cut it for me. Really, please don't take it personally, but the software interface (when you can get it connected and working! ) into cbus looks like something out of the stone age. So I would like this totally revamped and better still I'd like a web browser interface into PICED.

3/ A product line that is easier to retrofit into existing homes, and marketed in a more customer friendly fashion.

To quote Phenomenom "How about Clipsal put together a basic pack consisting of one 12 ch relay and 12 x 5031NL, hell they can even be pre-programmed. Offer it to the market at say $500 and see if they can keep up with demand. It is called a loss leader and all successful companies use them". I totally agree. Occupying realestate is usually a temporary proposition. Speak to most realestate agents and they will say the average stay in any abode is 7 years. Even less. So CIS needs to develop more gear in the product line which can be can easily retrofitted into an existing building. That way a/ Someone like myself can use cbus again when they move without having to either track down a house with it already installed...or completely rebuild, or b/ Someone new to cbus can start quickly and small and work up big, without pulling the house down around them! So in summary. Easier and cheaper to install relays at the central switchboard area, and more wireless switch/thermostat/touchscreen/mutliroom audio @ A/V control devices to be used out in the periphery...all marketed on a brand new website that is focused on the customer NOT just the installer....

I want to thank CIS for their open and frank forum!!

 

Any news on when this unit will be available for purchase - I am really keen on this? Are we talking 2009, early 2010, mid 2010?

 

Hi P2T

Sorry, only just noticed your post. Due for release Q1, 2010 (probably late Feb).

I'll post further info as we get close. Looking good at this stage though

Cheers

 

I suggested that this post have a great information about our sensitive mind. We will typically use Video Switchers from Kramer, . We will also typically have all the control (AV, Data, Voice) equipment centralized and in a floor standing rack enclosure. The Clipsal amps, particularly if you have 8 or more look a bit silly in this environment and messy with external PS's.The use of a tablet has been frequently asked for and is available from other competitive manufacturers.
Thanks

 

Heating control... for UFH & UK Part L / CSH

The look of the cbus HVAC controls is brilliant, and while it can be used with underfloor heating (UFH), it will not control it as it should. Today the system is better designed for AC units and heating that is turned on off, rather than flow control. The units would also benefit if each zone they control, could have a thermostat per zone.

On a green note the UK part L requirements and now further enforced by CSH (code for sustainable homes) require energy saving bulbs with proprietry sockets to be fitted to upto 70% (CSH level 6) of the lighting. This means new builds installing CBUS will not be able to take advantage of dimmers. The bulbs and holders are quite unsightly and it could be proven to be equally green by having a lighting solution that intelligently turns off lights, only permits bulbs to 70% of their full power etc.

For the lighting the hardware already delivers, what I need from cbus, is to understand the UK governments legislation on part L, and get designs of cbus installations accepted to meet part L. So yes this is a product request, but not the techy physical part.

 

User updateable firmware on all units.

Battery powered wireless switches.

Wireless Mesh network support for C-Bus wireless.

RF repeat ability for C-Bus wireless key units or at least on gateways (US versions already have this) .

Wireless switches that are dependent on only one load being present - ie dual channel units that don't fail when one of the bulbs blows.

Improved UK availability times and product coordination ;-)

More development resource for PICED - It's already a great product and there are even more opportunities and suggestions on the 'to do' list but it's a long list...

 

Dimmable constant current LED driver

Dimmable constant current LED driver

So far the only way of doing this is with a c-bus relay, a c-bus analogue O/P module and a dimmable driver.

Why not integrate all 3 devices into a C-Bus unit? The current (350mA or 700mA) could be selectable by a switch on the unit to save programming mistakes from being able to vaporise any LEDs and the software functions could be identical to a C-Bus dimmer.

You could sort out any SELV/LV isolation issues using the same solution that you've used for the bus isolation (even going so far as to use cat5 type cable which could happily carry the current).

As Razor77 has mentioned 2 posts above, until dimmable CFLs are available, LEDs are the only current way of meeting UK building regs if you want to have an attractive residential lighting scheme. The potential market is going to get bigger.

Another thing that's missing is a reward scheme for all these good ideas.....

Phil

 

My wishlist for a climate control:

- Thermostat control, integrated in DLT (OK is it will need an external temp sensor)

- A "climate control" installer handbook (should also include recommendations of correct conditioners (which can be connected to thermostat relays))

- Warm floor control solution (current GI + third party sensors + PAC is a bit too hard)

- Finally LON and ModBus interface to C-Bus. It will open climate market for C-Bus

- C-Bus enabled power meter (to adjust climate setpoints according to energy consumption of the house)

thank you)